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2013-05-04: Zero Dark Liberty
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1053

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
Quote:
Torture is wrong, but if by torturing 1 person you save a million? Can you say it's wrong anymore?


yes.


Even if that man was trying to end you or your families life before being tortured?


Um, no. Adding a revenge aspect does not make ANYTHING more right.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
Quote:
Torture is wrong, but if by torturing 1 person you save a million? Can you say it's wrong anymore?


yes.


Even if that man was trying to end you or your families life before being tortured?

You call the cops. You make whatever you can to protect your family. Hell, I can even forgive murdering them under some conditions. But torture is never necessary. It's just sadistic. I will not stand for sadism nor should you.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Torturing people is wrong. This shouldn't be a hard concept.


And killing people in a terrorist attack is wrong too, I don't understand why when someone has decided that another right life no longer matters that his "rights" stay sacred. We're not taking innocents of the street and doing it, were doing it to enemy combatants, I realize some probably are just fallowing orders, but I don't think that if they had a moral quandary with what they were doing they would keep tight lipped about it after being captured.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
Quote:
Torture is wrong, but if by torturing 1 person you save a million? Can you say it's wrong anymore?


yes.


Even if that man was trying to end you or your families life before being tortured?

You call the cops. You make whatever you can to protect your family. Hell, I can even forgive murdering them under some conditions. But torture is never necessary. It's just sadistic. I will not stand for sadism nor should you.


I guess I'm a Sith, Id rather be cruel and evil to one person, rather than let hundreds die because we were too late. It's also the reason I wont ever become a cop, cause I can't be neutral about it.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Torturing people is wrong. This shouldn't be a hard concept.


And killing people in a terrorist attack is wrong too, I don't understand why when someone has decided that another right life no longer matters that his "rights" stay sacred. We're not taking innocents of the street and doing it, were doing it to enemy combatants, I realize some probably are just fallowing orders, but I don't think that if they had a moral quandary with what they were doing they would keep tight lipped about it after being captured.

...This is the exact reason why Uncle Sam was created in Sinfest. Some people still think like this.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
Quote:
Torture is wrong, but if by torturing 1 person you save a million? Can you say it's wrong anymore?


yes.


Even if that man was trying to end you or your families life before being tortured?


Um, no. Adding a revenge aspect does not make ANYTHING more right.


It's not revenge, its saying, he doesn't fucking care about you, why should he then expect to be cared about. You gave up your rights when you try to take away someone else's.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its because they're morally bankrupt.

I'm not sure how many demonstrations of moral bankruptcy Rothide has to display before people realize that his reactions to various situations are completly predictable, but.....there it is.

That said, someone that predictable has got to be trolling. Either that or just profoundly stupid.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Torturing people is wrong. This shouldn't be a hard concept.


And killing people in a terrorist attack is wrong too, I don't understand why when someone has decided that another right life no longer matters that his "rights" stay sacred. We're not taking innocents of the street and doing it, were doing it to enemy combatants, I realize some probably are just fallowing orders, but I don't think that if they had a moral quandary with what they were doing they would keep tight lipped about it after being captured.

...This is the exact reason why Uncle Sam was created in Sinfest. Some people still think like this.


Im sorry, but if I had the chance to save hundreds by beating the SHIT out of one guy, Im going to beat the shit out of him.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Its because they're morally bankrupt.

I'm not sure how many demonstrations of moral bankruptcy Rothide has to display before people realize that his reactions to various situations are completly predictable, but.....there it is.

That said, someone that predictable has got to be trolling. Either that or just profoundly stupid.


Are you really telling me that if you have someone who knows info that can stop an attack, was a PART of planning the attack, and is keeping quiet no matter what you do besides hurting him, It is more moral to let thousands of innocent people die, than to hurt that man, not kill him, but hurt him.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Its because they're morally bankrupt.

I'm not sure how many demonstrations of moral bankruptcy Rothide has to display before people realize that his reactions to various situations are completly predictable, but.....there it is.

That said, someone that predictable has got to be trolling. Either that or just profoundly stupid.


Are you really telling me that if you have someone who knows info that can stop an attack, was a PART of planning the attack, and is keeping quiet no matter what you do besides hurting him, It is more moral to let thousands of innocent people die, than to hurt that man, not kill him, but hurt him.


Maybe, -maybe-, if that was actually reality. I doubt that it is, and there are a lot of good, smart people in the same camp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_torture_for_interrogation

As to your previous point, if it's not revenge, then you're pretty much arguing that hey, he surrendered his humanity, so it's okay for you to, too. Because, whatever you think of that person, whatever your justification is for not seeing them as human, you kinda make yourself a monster in putting -yourself- in that state of mind and willingness.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Its because they're morally bankrupt.

I'm not sure how many demonstrations of moral bankruptcy Rothide has to display before people realize that his reactions to various situations are completly predictable, but.....there it is.

That said, someone that predictable has got to be trolling. Either that or just profoundly stupid.


Are you really telling me that if you have someone who knows info that can stop an attack, was a PART of planning the attack, and is keeping quiet no matter what you do besides hurting him, It is more moral to let thousands of innocent people die, than to hurt that man, not kill him, but hurt him.


Maybe, -maybe-, if that was actually reality. I doubt that it is, and there are a lot of good, smart people in the same camp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_torture_for_interrogation

As to your previous point, if it's not revenge, then you're pretty much arguing that hey, he surrendered his humanity, so it's okay for you to, too. Because, whatever you think of that person, whatever your justification is for not seeing them as human, you kinda make yourself a monster in putting -yourself- in that state of mind and willingness.


I guess yeah, Im using a very VERY close idea when its acceptible, it has to be one of the guys who took part in the prep for the act, not someone who knew about it, can't just be a random civilian. But as for making myself the same monster, yes, but I'm doing it to save those lives, he did it to destroy those lives. If I had to give up my morals to save lives, by torturing a man who gave up those same morals to end them, I'd still do it.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

which, ironically, means that by the Rothide Rules of War or whatever someone else would be perfectly justified in torturing Rothide.

and since it won't work because of the very features of the scenario you're setting up, that means your Righteous Torture of this hypothetical person is not actually a means to the end of saving lives. because it won't. what it actually is, then, is just an outpouring of pointless cruelty.

so you're not really "giving up your morals" to save lives, you're "giving up your morals" because you're mad.


Last edited by ShadowCell on Sat May 04, 2013 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
which, ironically, means that by the Rothide Rules of War or whatever someone else would be perfectly justified in torturing Rothide.


Yes go ahead, mostly cause I know that what I'd be fighting for would be to save lives, I wouldn't be trying to kill any innocents, and I'd probably die. But I'd willingly die to keep people safe, and I wont be dying to make sure that the innocent people of a country I don't like die in a fiery explosion or a gas attack.

Though I guess if we have a deathwish and don't care about dying you could just lie to them, knowing full well that they could be killed afterwards, so yeah I can see that problem with torture, but I'm not saying torture is the end all be all, still do research and footwork, but use everything at your disposal.
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Last edited by Rothide on Sat May 04, 2013 9:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

watch out, guys, we're dealing with a badass over here
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CalmBlueSea



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 144
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Its because they're morally bankrupt.

I'm not sure how many demonstrations of moral bankruptcy Rothide has to display before people realize that his reactions to various situations are completly predictable, but.....there it is.

That said, someone that predictable has got to be trolling. Either that or just profoundly stupid.


Are you really telling me that if you have someone who knows info that can stop an attack, was a PART of planning the attack, and is keeping quiet no matter what you do besides hurting him, It is more moral to let thousands of innocent people die, than to hurt that man, not kill him, but hurt him.

The argument you're making requires knowledge that we don't always have available to us. It assumes that the person actually was involved; has accurate, up-to-date information you can get out of him -by beating him-; won't lie to stop the pain, even just temporarily; won't feel his cause is more important than physical pain; etc, etc, you get what I'm saying.

Plus, in real life, those policies never end at -just one guy-. It's "Huh, well he didn't tell us anything new. Let's try -that- one. Then -that- one. Then bring in some of those other brown people." We don't have the omniscience-level intel that would allow us to pick out that one dude who would tell us the truth, but only under that specific kind of pressure.

So it's not just immoral, it's also impractical.
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