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2013-05-04: Zero Dark Liberty
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
watch out, guys, we're dealing with a badass over here


No its just my belief "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends".
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalmBlueSea wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Its because they're morally bankrupt.

I'm not sure how many demonstrations of moral bankruptcy Rothide has to display before people realize that his reactions to various situations are completly predictable, but.....there it is.

That said, someone that predictable has got to be trolling. Either that or just profoundly stupid.


Are you really telling me that if you have someone who knows info that can stop an attack, was a PART of planning the attack, and is keeping quiet no matter what you do besides hurting him, It is more moral to let thousands of innocent people die, than to hurt that man, not kill him, but hurt him.

The argument you're making requires knowledge that we don't always have available to us. It assumes that the person actually was involved; has accurate, up-to-date information you can get out of him -by beating him-; won't lie to stop the pain, even just temporarily; won't feel his cause is more important than physical pain; etc, etc, you get what I'm saying.

Plus, in real life, those policies never end at -just one guy-. It's "Huh, well he didn't tell us anything new. Let's try -that- one. Then -that- one. Then bring in some of those other brown people." We don't have the omniscience-level intel that would allow us to pick out that one dude who would tell us the truth, but only under that specific kind of pressure.

So it's not just immoral, it's also impractical.


And that's wrong, torture is okay in my book if it is STRICT, you go through the 5 guys that were found with the bomb plans and fertilizer in their van, not the guy living next to them that told them to keep the pounding down.

And yes, lying is a problem but "even in a lie is a hint of truth", they can rule out the lie, and maybe have a closer idea to where it will be happening. Don't just stop just cause you got some info, stop the torture yeah, but don't stop investigating it.
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Last edited by Rothide on Sat May 04, 2013 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

none of which addresses the first part of the problem, that it's impractical.

and that is important because its impracticality takes away your claim that it is morally excused by its practical use in saving lives. which means you are torturing someone without justification of need, and your torture is just an expression of pointless cruelty.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, in a one-in-a-billion case where you have a "24" style ticking timebomb clock running to zero with millions of lives at stake, and you have a confirmed participant in the planning, you'd be willing to go all Jack Bauer on him, (on the additional off chance that he's less dedicated to his cause for the next however long until the big boom than you are, and is not just going to stall with false information or whatever it is you want to hear when and if he does talk.)

What does that super-duper-unlikely scenario have to do with a country's actual general sanctioned-torture policies and whether or not torture in general is acceptable?

Aside, I guess, to make you feel like, hypothetically, you're as dedicated to your worldview as someone who has planned and executed a complicated world-altering terrorist attack that they're probably not planning on returning alive from anyway.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one ever makes up a complete lie? Huh. What about all those people I tell my name is Dale Woodcock, prized rooster farmer, when I'm traveling? I think Macaulay had it right when he said, "Nothing is so useless as a general maxim." Believing them makes you silly, and possibly condone unnecessary torture!
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
none of which addresses the first part of the problem, that it's impractical.

and that is important because its impracticality takes away your claim that it is morally excused by its practical use in saving lives. which means you are torturing someone without justification of need, and your torture is just an expression of pointless cruelty.


It's not sensible or realistic to use my strict torture because you don't find it sensible or realistic. Much like I don't find it practical to eat a vegan diet. Your using your own idea's to say something is wrong. Sensibility and Realistic changes form person to person, so sorry, I'm not going to use your practical argument to change my idea.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
So, in a one-in-a-billion case where you have a "24" style ticking timebomb clock running to zero with millions of lives at stake, and you have a confirmed participant in the planning, you'd be willing to go all Jack Bauer on him, (on the additional off chance that he's less dedicated to his cause for the next however long until the big boom than you are, and is not just going to stall with false information or whatever it is you want to hear when and if he does talk.)

What does that super-duper-unlikely scenario have to do with a country's actual general sanctioned-torture policies and whether or not torture in general is acceptable?

Aside, I guess, to make you feel like, hypothetically, you're as dedicated to your worldview as someone who has planned and executed a complicated world-altering terrorist attack that they're probably not planning on returning alive from anyway.


I'm saying the government is too loose in its usage of torture, but that it shouldn't be off the table.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
No one ever makes up a complete lie? Huh. What about all those people I tell my name is Dale Woodcock, prized rooster farmer, when I'm traveling? I think Macaulay had it right when he said, "Nothing is so useless as a general maxim." Believing them makes you silly, and possibly condone unnecessary torture!


Besides which, if the situation is just soooOOOooooOOOOOoooo deathly urgent that you have HAVE to torture someone instead of going through other channels of investigation, how exactly is chasing down leads from someone who you have just given every opportunity and motivation to send you off on a wild goose chase any more of an efficient use of your time, let alone efficient enough to justify the fact that you're torturing someone?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
none of which addresses the first part of the problem, that it's impractical.

and that is important because its impracticality takes away your claim that it is morally excused by its practical use in saving lives. which means you are torturing someone without justification of need, and your torture is just an expression of pointless cruelty.


It's not sensible or realistic to use my strict torture because you don't find it sensible or realistic. Much like I don't find it practical to eat a vegan diet. Your using your own idea's to say something is wrong. Sensibility and Realistic changes form person to person, so sorry, I'm not going to use your practical argument to change my idea.


The burden of proof for practical benefit kind of lies on the shoulders of THE ONE WHO IS ADVOCATING TORTURE.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
none of which addresses the first part of the problem, that it's impractical.

and that is important because its impracticality takes away your claim that it is morally excused by its practical use in saving lives. which means you are torturing someone without justification of need, and your torture is just an expression of pointless cruelty.


It's not sensible or realistic to use my strict torture because you don't find it sensible or realistic. Much like I don't find it practical to eat a vegan diet. Your using your own idea's to say something is wrong. Sensibility and Realistic changes form person to person, so sorry, I'm not going to use your practical argument to change my idea.


that's nice and all, but it's not sensible or realistic to use your strict torture idea because torture is not practical.

so you can stick your fingers in your ears and cry about how tough you are but you're still, you know, wrong.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
No one ever makes up a complete lie? Huh. What about all those people I tell my name is Dale Woodcock, prized rooster farmer, when I'm traveling? I think Macaulay had it right when he said, "Nothing is so useless as a general maxim." Believing them makes you silly, and possibly condone unnecessary torture!


But that's general, your just giving your name and profession, if you had to continue, I bet you'd find that you actually gave some true things about yourself, unless your rigorously planned for it, and that might also be the case here. And again, Im not just saying "torture the fuckers, that'll solve it", Im saying "torture, when used in a strict way against a certain person that must have all these parameters, could be used, but never used if all these conditions are not met". So yeah, the 24 type scenario with my parameters met, GO TORTURE! Anything else, not viable.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
none of which addresses the first part of the problem, that it's impractical.

and that is important because its impracticality takes away your claim that it is morally excused by its practical use in saving lives. which means you are torturing someone without justification of need, and your torture is just an expression of pointless cruelty.


It's not sensible or realistic to use my strict torture because you don't find it sensible or realistic. Much like I don't find it practical to eat a vegan diet. Your using your own idea's to say something is wrong. Sensibility and Realistic changes form person to person, so sorry, I'm not going to use your practical argument to change my idea.


that's nice and all, but it's not sensible or realistic to use your strict torture idea because torture is not practical.

so you can stick your fingers in your ears and cry about how tough you are but you're still, you know, wrong.


You gave me an article with 14 lines of text, not very deep there, just basically saying "lots of people say torture gives wrong info so torture gives wrong info".

And yes I red the last one with the bomber pilot, again, didn't take part in the manufacturing, wasn't one of the heads who decided the attack, just the driver, don't torture him.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's play this game, Rothide. You give me your most specific case possible. Who you want to torture, why do you want to torture him and what method of torture you want to use. Make the tortured as evil as you want. I accept historical characters like Jack the Ripper or fictional ones like War the Horseman of the apocalypse. Once you do that I will tell you what makes torture no the best method to deal with the situation.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
none of which addresses the first part of the problem, that it's impractical.

and that is important because its impracticality takes away your claim that it is morally excused by its practical use in saving lives. which means you are torturing someone without justification of need, and your torture is just an expression of pointless cruelty.


It's not sensible or realistic to use my strict torture because you don't find it sensible or realistic. Much like I don't find it practical to eat a vegan diet. Your using your own idea's to say something is wrong. Sensibility and Realistic changes form person to person, so sorry, I'm not going to use your practical argument to change my idea.


that's nice and all, but it's not sensible or realistic to use your strict torture idea because torture is not practical.

so you can stick your fingers in your ears and cry about how tough you are but you're still, you know, wrong.


You gave me an article with 14 lines of text, not very deep there, just basically saying "lots of people say torture gives wrong info so torture gives wrong info".


And a bunch of footnoted references if you actually cared about what was backing those statements up.

And, again, it's not up to anti-torture advocates to prove that torture isn't effective, though you can be sure plenty of people have put a lot of time and effort into that argument. Because torture is VILE.

But burden of proof is still on you. You don't just get to wave your hand and let your argument boil down to an unsupported tautology of: "I think that torture is necessary sometimes because I think that torture is necessary sometimes."
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Let's play this game, Rothide. You give me your most specific case possible. Who you want to torture, why do you want to torture him and what method of torture you want to use. Make the tortured as evil as you want. I accept historical characters like Jack the Ripper or fictional ones like War the Horseman of the apocalypse. Once you do that I will tell you what makes torture no the best method to deal with the situation.


Osama Bin Laden, before the 9/11 attacks, government finds info on the attack before it takes place, able to find Bin Laden, Torture: Water Boarding (go with a classic), while he is being tortured we continue to search through his documents. If given information, we check on it, decide to send people to check on it, but stop the torture, if found that the info is a lie, don't torture again, we already know he will not give us the info, continue to do footwork, pray we find out in time.
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