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2013-05-04: Zero Dark Liberty
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
Rothide wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
none of which addresses the first part of the problem, that it's impractical.

and that is important because its impracticality takes away your claim that it is morally excused by its practical use in saving lives. which means you are torturing someone without justification of need, and your torture is just an expression of pointless cruelty.


It's not sensible or realistic to use my strict torture because you don't find it sensible or realistic. Much like I don't find it practical to eat a vegan diet. Your using your own idea's to say something is wrong. Sensibility and Realistic changes form person to person, so sorry, I'm not going to use your practical argument to change my idea.


that's nice and all, but it's not sensible or realistic to use your strict torture idea because torture is not practical.

so you can stick your fingers in your ears and cry about how tough you are but you're still, you know, wrong.


You gave me an article with 14 lines of text, not very deep there, just basically saying "lots of people say torture gives wrong info so torture gives wrong info".


And a bunch of footnoted references if you actually cared about what was backing those statements up.

And, again, it's not up to anti-torture advocates to prove that torture isn't effective, though you can be sure plenty of people have put a lot of time and effort into that argument. Because torture is VILE.

But burden of proof is still on you. You don't just get to wave your hand and let your argument boil down to an unsupported tautology of: "I think that torture is necessary sometimes because I think that torture is necessary sometimes."


True, that was stupid of me. I'm going to give up on it though, going to listen to what Dogen says, but then never talk about it again.

But I'm like this with anyone, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. The golden rule says treat others how you expect to be treated, if you treated others that you want them to be hurt, I'll give you what you expected to be treated like.

I'm also the guy that says, you murder someone by pushing their car into a river, your death penalty is being in a car pushed into a river.
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Last edited by Rothide on Sat May 04, 2013 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what's really great is that all of your parameters actually demonstrate why torture is so unreliable.

if you have someone sitting in front of you who knows where the bomb is planted, who knows how many were planted, and who knows when the bomb is set to go off, then it is logically necessary that he knows certain other things. for example, if he knows what time it is now and he knows when the bomb goes off, he knows how long it will be before any questions you ask are moot; once the clock strikes zero, the bomb goes off and he wins. if he knows how many bombs were planted, then he also knows how many bombs were not planted, and he can tell you any number he likes to distract you looking for bombs that may or may not exist, or to make you think you've found them all. if he knows where the bomb is planted, then he knows where the bomb is not planted, and can point you to any location where the bomb is not planted that he wishes.

now let's combine them! if he knows when the bomb goes off, how many there are, and where it's planted, he can tell you that there's five bombs when there's only three and they're planted at v, w, x, y, and z when they're actually planted in a, b, and c, and he knows that they'll go off in six hours so he only needs you chasing phantom bombs for six hours before he wins.

and you, the interrogator, know none of this, which is why you're interrogating him. hence, you have no way of knowing if he's telling you the truth or if he's telling you a lie when he tells you there's five bombs planted at v, w, x, y, and z set to go off in twenty-four hours. so even as you torture him, he can tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear, and thus try to spare himself the torture while at the same time ensuring that his plan succeeds.

you could find out, of course, from sources that are not the prisoner in question. but then, if you find out where the bombs are and when they go off without any information from him, then you didn't need him to find the bombs--which means you didn't need to torture him. which means, if you did torture him, it was unjustified, because you didn't need to do it to gain the information you needed to find the bombs.

which meeeeeeeeeeeeans even in your 24 ticking time bomb scenario with all your parameters in place, torture is not a practical tool for saving lives.

which makes it unjustified, even under your parameters.

game, set, match.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Let's play this game, Rothide. You give me your most specific case possible. Who you want to torture, why do you want to torture him and what method of torture you want to use. Make the tortured as evil as you want. I accept historical characters like Jack the Ripper or fictional ones like War the Horseman of the apocalypse. Once you do that I will tell you what makes torture no the best method to deal with the situation.


Osama Bin Laden, before the 9/11 attacks, government finds info on the attack before it takes place, able to find Bin Laden, Torture: Water Boarding (go with a classic), while he is being tortured we continue to search through his documents. If given information, we check on it, decide to send people to check on it, but stop the torture, if found that the info is a lie, don't torture again, we already know he will not give us the info, continue to do footwork, pray we find out in time.

What info did the government find on the attack?

EDIT: Also what ties Bin Laden to the incident?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
what's really great is that all of your parameters actually demonstrate why torture is so unreliable.

if you have someone sitting in front of you who knows where the bomb is planted, who knows how many were planted, and who knows when the bomb is set to go off, then it is logically necessary that he knows certain other things. for example, if he knows what time it is now and he knows when the bomb goes off, he knows how long it will be before any questions you ask are moot; once the clock strikes zero, the bomb goes off and he wins. if he knows how many bombs were planted, then he also knows how many bombs were not planted, and he can tell you any number he likes to distract you looking for bombs that may or may not exist, or to make you think you've found them all. if he knows where the bomb is planted, then he knows where the bomb is not planted, and can point you to any location where the bomb is not planted that he wishes.

now let's combine them! if he knows when the bomb goes off, how many there are, and where it's planted, he can tell you that there's five bombs when there's only three and they're planted at v, w, x, y, and z when they're actually planted in a, b, and c, and he knows that they'll go off in six hours so he only needs you chasing phantom bombs for six hours before he wins.

and you, the interrogator, know none of this, which is why you're interrogating him. hence, you have no way of knowing if he's telling you the truth or if he's telling you a lie when he tells you there's five bombs planted at v, w, x, y, and z set to go off in twenty-four hours. so even as you torture him, he can tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear, and thus try to spare himself the torture while at the same time ensuring that his plan succeeds.

you could find out, of course, from sources that are not the prisoner in question. but then, if you find out where the bombs are and when they go off without any information from him, then you didn't need him to find the bombs--which means you didn't need to torture him. which means, if you did torture him, it was unjustified, because you didn't need to do it to gain the information you needed to find the bombs.

which meeeeeeeeeeeeans even in your 24 ticking time bomb scenario with all your parameters in place, torture is not a practical tool for saving lives.

which makes it unjustified, even under your parameters.

game, set, match.


EXACTLY.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Let's play this game, Rothide. You give me your most specific case possible. Who you want to torture, why do you want to torture him and what method of torture you want to use. Make the tortured as evil as you want. I accept historical characters like Jack the Ripper or fictional ones like War the Horseman of the apocalypse. Once you do that I will tell you what makes torture no the best method to deal with the situation.


Osama Bin Laden, before the 9/11 attacks, government finds info on the attack before it takes place, able to find Bin Laden, Torture: Water Boarding (go with a classic), while he is being tortured we continue to search through his documents. If given information, we check on it, decide to send people to check on it, but stop the torture, if found that the info is a lie, don't torture again, we already know he will not give us the info, continue to do footwork, pray we find out in time.

What info did the government find on the attack?


A transportation service will be used to attack certain landmarks.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Let's play this game, Rothide. You give me your most specific case possible. Who you want to torture, why do you want to torture him and what method of torture you want to use. Make the tortured as evil as you want. I accept historical characters like Jack the Ripper or fictional ones like War the Horseman of the apocalypse. Once you do that I will tell you what makes torture no the best method to deal with the situation.


Osama Bin Laden, before the 9/11 attacks, government finds info on the attack before it takes place, able to find Bin Laden, Torture: Water Boarding (go with a classic), while he is being tortured we continue to search through his documents. If given information, we check on it, decide to send people to check on it, but stop the torture, if found that the info is a lie, don't torture again, we already know he will not give us the info, continue to do footwork, pray we find out in time.

What info did the government find on the attack?


A transportation service will be used to attack certain landmarks.

Sure, but how do they know that? Also what ties it to Bin Laden?

Addendum: I already found flaws here. I just want a big collection for later.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
what's really great is that all of your parameters actually demonstrate why torture is so unreliable.

if you have someone sitting in front of you who knows where the bomb is planted, who knows how many were planted, and who knows when the bomb is set to go off, then it is logically necessary that he knows certain other things. for example, if he knows what time it is now and he knows when the bomb goes off, he knows how long it will be before any questions you ask are moot; once the clock strikes zero, the bomb goes off and he wins. if he knows how many bombs were planted, then he also knows how many bombs were not planted, and he can tell you any number he likes to distract you looking for bombs that may or may not exist, or to make you think you've found them all. if he knows where the bomb is planted, then he knows where the bomb is not planted, and can point you to any location where the bomb is not planted that he wishes.

now let's combine them! if he knows when the bomb goes off, how many there are, and where it's planted, he can tell you that there's five bombs when there's only three and they're planted at v, w, x, y, and z when they're actually planted in a, b, and c, and he knows that they'll go off in six hours so he only needs you chasing phantom bombs for six hours before he wins.

and you, the interrogator, know none of this, which is why you're interrogating him. hence, you have no way of knowing if he's telling you the truth or if he's telling you a lie when he tells you there's five bombs planted at v, w, x, y, and z set to go off in twenty-four hours. so even as you torture him, he can tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear, and thus try to spare himself the torture while at the same time ensuring that his plan succeeds.

you could find out, of course, from sources that are not the prisoner in question. but then, if you find out where the bombs are and when they go off without any information from him, then you didn't need him to find the bombs--which means you didn't need to torture him. which means, if you did torture him, it was unjustified, because you didn't need to do it to gain the information you needed to find the bombs.

which meeeeeeeeeeeeans even in your 24 ticking time bomb scenario with all your parameters in place, torture is not a practical tool for saving lives.

which makes it unjustified, even under your parameters.

game, set, match.


I get it, your reasoning is, he's just going to lie, and were going to fail anyway, so might as well keep searching and if we fail, we were going to fail either way.

I see your point.

I guess I just don't see him sitting alone in a prison cell for years a punishment.
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Last edited by Rothide on Sat May 04, 2013 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Let's play this game, Rothide. You give me your most specific case possible. Who you want to torture, why do you want to torture him and what method of torture you want to use. Make the tortured as evil as you want. I accept historical characters like Jack the Ripper or fictional ones like War the Horseman of the apocalypse. Once you do that I will tell you what makes torture no the best method to deal with the situation.


Osama Bin Laden, before the 9/11 attacks, government finds info on the attack before it takes place, able to find Bin Laden, Torture: Water Boarding (go with a classic), while he is being tortured we continue to search through his documents. If given information, we check on it, decide to send people to check on it, but stop the torture, if found that the info is a lie, don't torture again, we already know he will not give us the info, continue to do footwork, pray we find out in time.

What info did the government find on the attack?


A transportation service will be used to attack certain landmarks.

Sure, but how do they know that? Also what ties it to Bin Laden?

Addendum: I already found flaws here. I just want a big collection for later.


Well shadowcell kinda explained it to me better, so I get it, even if we could get the truth, its so small of a chance that it would just be a waste of time.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Though this also means that keeping him around or even alive is kinda pointless, he didn't give us info to stop this, why keep him around.


because you would be murdering prisoners for no reason other than spite?
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Though this also means that keeping him around or even alive is kinda pointless, he didn't give us info to stop this, why keep him around.


because you would be murdering prisoners for no reason other than spite?


True, but still he's a waste of resources now, he won't give info, and all he's going to do is suck up food and resources from other people. He basically won.

Still it doesn't change the fact that you gave a valid arguement... I guess I just want justice for those people that got killed, and sitting in a cell for the rest of your life doesn't seem really fair to the people that won't have a rest of their life.
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Last edited by Rothide on Sat May 04, 2013 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and...how would that justify murdering him for spite?
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
and...how would that justify murdering him for spite?


^^^ I edited the post, sorry.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By all means, if it gets to that point, and you have -proof- by whatever war-crimes standard that isn't hyper-hypocritical you're going by, then try, sentence, and punish him. Death penalty might be best. No one's arguing against justice for justly-proved malfeasance here.

Just not pre-emptive torture.

EDIT: though, again, you kind of have to prove the necessity and rightness of that kind of permanent removal, and burden of proof is on you. And no, spite doesn't count.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you had told me this comic would lead to a pair of fucking idiots roleplaying torturing info out of Bin Laden to stop 9/11, I probably would have said "Is Rothide one of them? It's Rothide isn't it."

Jesus what an awful fucking thread.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
By all means, if it gets to that point, and you have -proof- by whatever war-crimes standard that isn't hyper-hypocritical you're going by, then try, sentence, and punish him. Death penalty might be best. No one's arguing against justice for justly-proved malfeasance here.

Just not pre-emptive torture.

EDIT: though, again, you kind of have to prove the necessity and rightness of that kind of permanent removal, and burden of proof is on you. And no, spite doesn't count.


I agree now, that is a very valid argument against torture, and now I gotta change my outlook on it.
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