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Bitcoins! Cargo Cult Economy of the Future!
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what does paypal charge for transactions? i would think the future would be through a service that charges minimally for transactions, is not so quick to freeze accounts, and deals in a solid currency - so more likely to be whoever competes with paypal, rather than a whole new currency.

and as your article points out, businesses need to pay suppliers; if the suppliers don't accept bitcoins, then the business is screwed. so for bitcoin to really take over in the future, there needs to be a fairly broad but rapid shift in its acceptance. at least, that seems logical to me.
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anti-prophet



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The standard rate for receiving payments for goods and services is 3.4%.

If you receive more than €2,500.00 EUR per month, you're eligible to apply for PayPal's Merchant Rate - which lowers your fees as your sales volume increases. Your fees can be as low as 1.9%, based on your previous month's sales volume.
Purchase payments received (monthly) Fee per transaction
€0.00 EUR - €2,500.00 EUR 3.4% + €0.35 EUR
€2,500.01 EUR - €10,000.00 EUR 2.9% + €0.35 EUR
€10,000.01 EUR - €50,000.00 EUR 2.7% + €0.35 EUR
€50,000.01 EUR - €100,000.00 EUR 2.4% + €0.35 EUR
> €100,000.00 EUR 1.9% + €0.35 EUR
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anti-prophet



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand bit coins them self may not be the future but a bit coin clone will be. I imagine an e-currency will become the international currency in the way that many futuristic games/movies have credits. The death of physical currency may happen within our lifetimes.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Republic Credits are no good out here. I need something more real.

I think in the future we won't have currency at all. We'll just flash a multipass if we need something and be instantly gratified.

Multipass

MOOL TEE PASS


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anti-prophet



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:
Except, that future will never occur with bitcoin.

Also: who the hell takes thirty percent? Back when I worked retail no one would take AMEX because they charged seven.


It depends on the contract with the company as my paypal example above shows the higher the monthly transactions the less the percentage fee. So for small businesses the fees would be a higher percentage than larger businesses cutting into the revenue of those who are more likely to need it. I imagine the 30% would be the extreme for someone who does not have much in sales and possibly uses the phone credit card readers as i have heard that those charge quite a bit. The average in the us appears to be just above 2% but I am unable to find the average for small businesses at the moment.

If you where to pay 1 EUR at a convenience store for something with paypal you the convenience store would be charged their percentage plus 0.35 EUR basically exceeding 35% right there.


Last edited by anti-prophet on Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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anti-prophet



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
Republic Credits are no good out here. I need something more real.

I think in the future we won't have currency at all. We'll just flash a multipass if we need something and be instantly gratified.

Multipass

MOOL TEE PASS



they are developing facial recognition payment/ fingerprint payment/ and phones with chips that you can swipe over a sensor to make payments form multiple payment sources.

also I recognize that you are not completely serious but the payment from the multipass has to be a recognized currency and if it is not a physical currency than it will be an e-currency.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-prophet wrote:
I understand bit coins them self may not be the future but a bit coin clone will be. I imagine an e-currency will become the international currency in the way that many futuristic games/movies have credits. The death of physical currency may happen within our lifetimes.

Okay, but that's like saying unicycles may not be the transportation of the future but something with wheels will be. The currency of the future may be digital - shit 99% of all the money I spend is already indistinguishable from "credits" - but that currency will have to be regulated, safe, and stable before a majority of people will feel comfortable using it.

I mean... how many people are using BTC (or a clone) for all of their income/payments? Anyone? Does that seem like a currency to you? Because to most people it seems like a commodity, like gold or corn.
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"I recognize that you are not completely serious..."


Subtle. Understated. I like it.
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anti-prophet



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
anti-prophet wrote:
I understand bit coins them self may not be the future but a bit coin clone will be. I imagine an e-currency will become the international currency in the way that many futuristic games/movies have credits. The death of physical currency may happen within our lifetimes.

Okay, but that's like saying unicycles may not be the transportation of the future but something with wheels will be. The currency of the future may be digital - shit 99% of all the money I spend is already indistinguishable from "credits" - but that currency will have to be regulated, safe, and stable before a majority of people will feel comfortable using it.

I mean... how many people are using BTC (or a clone) for all of their income/payments? Anyone? Does that seem like a currency to you? Because to most people it seems like a commodity, like gold or corn.


Actually bit coins are the ultimate fiat currency as it has value only because the people who use it say it does. Commodity currency can be held and has inherent value other than its use in trade. Gold can be used for electronics, and used to build with, and can be held. Corn can be eaten and weighed. What is the inherent commodity value of bit coin?

Saying it is not common in use now is not enough to say it won't be as the trend of its use and similar currencies are increasing. When credit cards first came around did people think that they will be making all of their transactions with plastic in the future?

People have already shown that e-currency has alot of tracking available within it and the demand for untraceable purchases will only increase with the switch away from phisical currency. Some small countries have already outlawed paper transactions over a certain price as they are easy for tax evasion. People who wish to purchase things without being watched weather it is for tax reasons, embarrassment over the item purchased (porn, sex toys, cloths for cross dressers, or just something they do not want a potential employer to be able to see), or for illicit purchases will seak out a way to pay for things without being traced. When cash is gone they will have to turn to bartering or something like bit coin.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That just means it's a commodity that's not tied to anything useful. Not that it's a currency. Although the government is increasingly taking it at its word that it is, in fact a currency.
The Bitcoin community is apparently less than thrilled with being taken seriously so.
The USD is a fiat currency too, except that it actually has something credible (if not exactly physical) backing it up besides the 3rd party exchanges.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-prophet wrote:
Dogen wrote:
anti-prophet wrote:
I understand bit coins them self may not be the future but a bit coin clone will be. I imagine an e-currency will become the international currency in the way that many futuristic games/movies have credits. The death of physical currency may happen within our lifetimes.

Okay, but that's like saying unicycles may not be the transportation of the future but something with wheels will be. The currency of the future may be digital - shit 99% of all the money I spend is already indistinguishable from "credits" - but that currency will have to be regulated, safe, and stable before a majority of people will feel comfortable using it.

I mean... how many people are using BTC (or a clone) for all of their income/payments? Anyone? Does that seem like a currency to you? Because to most people it seems like a commodity, like gold or corn.


Actually bit coins are the ultimate fiat currency as it has value only because the people who use it say it does. Commodity currency can be held and has inherent value other than its use in trade. Gold can be used for electronics, and used to build with, and can be held. Corn can be eaten and weighed. What is the inherent commodity value of bit coin?

In that sense it functions just like regular currency - paper which has value because the federal government says it does. Luckily for users of USD, though, valuations of that paper aren't given to wild variations, and transactions using it are regulated, making it relatively safe and trustworthy for people to use both day to day (everyone accepts it and the cost of goods won't change between the time you put them in your cart and the time you pay) and to keep (the chances of the USD suddenly losing most of its value is low).
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anti-prophet



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did not expect replys so quickly see my edit.
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anti-prophet



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
anti-prophet wrote:
Dogen wrote:
anti-prophet wrote:
I understand bit coins them self may not be the future but a bit coin clone will be. I imagine an e-currency will become the international currency in the way that many futuristic games/movies have credits. The death of physical currency may happen within our lifetimes.

Okay, but that's like saying unicycles may not be the transportation of the future but something with wheels will be. The currency of the future may be digital - shit 99% of all the money I spend is already indistinguishable from "credits" - but that currency will have to be regulated, safe, and stable before a majority of people will feel comfortable using it.

I mean... how many people are using BTC (or a clone) for all of their income/payments? Anyone? Does that seem like a currency to you? Because to most people it seems like a commodity, like gold or corn.


Actually bit coins are the ultimate fiat currency as it has value only because the people who use it say it does. Commodity currency can be held and has inherent value other than its use in trade. Gold can be used for electronics, and used to build with, and can be held. Corn can be eaten and weighed. What is the inherent commodity value of bit coin?

In that sense it functions just like regular currency - paper which has value because the federal government says it does. Luckily for users of USD, though, valuations of that paper aren't given to wild variations, and transactions using it are regulated, making it relatively safe and trustworthy for people to use both day to day (everyone accepts it and the cost of goods won't change between the time you put them in your cart and the time you pay) and to keep (the chances of the USD suddenly losing most of its value is low).


I am not arguing that its current form is the best form nor that it does not fluctuate. Although with increased "legitimate" use its price will normalize although I expect its inflation to always outpace the $. With higher use it will have higher solvency allowing for a more stable price level. For it to be publicly useable by the average person it would have to have an accepted price rate related to certain products to judge its fluctuation just like we have price indexes for the us fiat money.
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anti-prophet



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
That just means it's a commodity that's not tied to anything useful. Not that it's a currency. Although the government is increasingly taking it at its word that it is, in fact a currency.
The Bitcoin community is apparently less than thrilled with being taken seriously so.
The USD is a fiat currency too, except that it actually has something credible (if not exactly physical) backing it up besides the 3rd party exchanges.


A comidity has value outside of trade. What is the inherent commodity value of bit coin? What can I do with it outside of trade?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-prophet wrote:
Saying it is not common in use now is not enough to say it won't be as the trend of its use and similar currencies are increasing. When credit cards first came around did people think that they will be making all of their transactions with plastic in the future?

You mean credit cards backed by USD and paid in USD? I'm not really sure that analogy works well, since electronic banking still utilizes a currency that was stable, regulated, and relatively safe. Unlike BTC.

Quote:
People have already shown that e-currency has alot of tracking available within it and the demand for untraceable purchases will only increase with the switch away from phisical currency. Some small countries have already outlawed paper transactions over a certain price as they are easy for tax evasion. People who wish to purchase things without being watched weather it is for tax reasons, embarrassment over the item purchased (porn, sex toys, cloths for cross dressers, or just something they do not want a potential employer to be able to see), or for illicit purchases will seak out a way to pay for things without being traced. When cash is gone they will have to turn to bartering or something like bit coin.

None of this matters if regular people can't do the majority of their daily business in it. If all BTC is good for is buying embarrassing or illegal stuff then it's just a barter system - a commodity. I trade money for a widget that I can trade for a sex toy. The widget could be anything, but it's not a currency. It's just an intermediary that will be exchanged for money later. When BTC is regulated and not prone to gaining and losing value wildly then people might think it's safe enough to actually use as money. Maybe it'll get there, but I see no reason to assume actual USD are going anywhere. Because they're... wait for it... stable, regulated, and already accepted everywhere for the 99.99% of things I need (and, seriously, I've bought sex toys with a credit card, so...). BTC is re-inventing the wheel for the majority of people, because for most people and most purchases it has no benefit over cash or a card that is backed by the security of a federal government (that is, the security that your money will be there and worth the same as it was yesterday).
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