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Bitcoins! Cargo Cult Economy of the Future!
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10420
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what happens if my physical wallet is stolen and someone uses my credit card? I report it to the police and I'm out the cost of my wallet, everything else is covered by fraud protection. If my bank goes belly up? FDIC or NCUA covers me (up to a limit that's orders of magnitude higher than what I have ever had in a bank).

What happens if your digital wallet is hacked and/or your BTCs stolen?
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again for it to be stable it would require more solvency witch would require higher volume of transactions. And again I am talking about the future not the present. Do I currently have bitcoins or some similar hard to trace electronic currency? No I do not. You are simply pointing out the many hurdles that e-currency has to deal with before becoming widely accepted not poking holes in any of my arguments.

Credit cards where not initially viewed as safe as they are now. The laws had not been passed to help consumers and they are not stricly backed by a currency they are backed by the business that issues them. The transactions are valued through a currency though and the company uses the currency and their other forms of capital as backing for the transactions.

I think we are typing over each other and possibly missing messages so I will be back tomorrow after bed.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9182

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Again for it to be stable it would require more solvency witch would require higher volume of transactions.


Except, at present, the Bitcoin blockchain is bloating into paralyzingly unmanageable size, even given the extraordinarily small portion of economic exchange it represents. The cryptographic system it used as a proof of concept is incapable of managing larger representation in economic exchange.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11871
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, even if significant volume of use and widespread acceptance was something Bitcoin needed to become a legit currency instead of a vehicle for speculation and black marketeering, it will never be able to scale that high for technical reasons relating to its core design.
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Quote:
Again for it to be stable it would require more solvency witch would require higher volume of transactions.


Except, at present, the Bitcoin blockchain is bloating into paralyzingly unmanageable size, even given the extraordinarily small portion of economic exchange it represents. The cryptographic system it used as a proof of concept is incapable of managing larger representation in economic exchange.


This may be the bigest hurdle future e-currency has to jump if it survives legal action. If they are unable to change the way it is handled it will become very dependent on stronger and stronger hardware with requirements of faster Internet. This may not be such an issue for long with the rate of tech development but is severely crippling now. In the end the "proof of concept" way is most likely going to have to be updated but other than creating a new block chain after the old one gets too big I do not know how it will be accomplished. This way would create potential ways for duplicating the currency though.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 2786
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you use a debit card, you enter a pin number after swiping a card. No actual currency changes hands. It's glorious. I think digital currency is more likely to evolve from this rather than being created from scratch by people who intend for the currency to take hold.

More than that, I don't see Bitcoin taking over from everything else until it is trusted as secure. Anyone else remember when Paypal was a new thing? Before that, I remember payments online being super risky.
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
When you use a debit card, you enter a pin number after swiping a card. No actual currency changes hands. It's glorious. I think digital currency is more likely to evolve from this rather than being created from scratch by people who intend for the currency to take hold.

More than that, I don't see Bitcoin taking over from everything else until it is trusted as secure. Anyone else remember when Paypal was a new thing? Before that, I remember payments online being super risky.


This is close to how I see it. I feel that within our lifetime we will all move to e-currencies backed by governments at first, such as we do now with debit cards. The next step would be an international e-currency, this may just be the expansion on the euros use or may be something else completely. Then there will always be things similar to bitcoins, hard to track e-currencies, as long as there is a demand for it, and that demand will always be there as long as other people can look at your previous credit purchases. People will want to be able to send anonymous donations to causes they believe in but know that future employers may not like, such as supporting an atheist or feminist cause. We have to admit that with the expansion on credit histories that the use of non phisical currencies are easily traceable for employers and governments.
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to make it clear I think bit coins or its descendants will always be a secondary currency but that the growth of it and currencies like it will continue and over time become more stable and trustworthy, though they will always have a degree of less certainty than the major currency of the time.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9182

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you say 'future e-currency,' do you mean future cryptocurrency?

As we already have well-tested e-currency in the form of, well, credit and debit.
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I referenced that hard to trace aka crypto currency is always going to be a secondary currency but will remain and grow and eventually be accepted by the average if still looked down on. If you follow the correct block chains far enough back I recognize that they are not fully anonymous.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3152

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-prophet wrote:
I referenced that hard to trace aka crypto currency is always going to be a secondary currency but will remain and grow and eventually be accepted by the average if still looked down on. If you follow the correct block chains far enough back I recognize that they are not fully anonymous.


Based on what? Hopes and dreams and fairy farts?
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will there always be a demand within society to make anonymous purchases? If you believe the answer is yes than for as long as there is demand someone will create a supply. As far as I can tell in the age of e-currency bitcoin is the best way to fill that demand currently but it's descendants will most likely be the ones to fill the demand when it reaches acceptance.

If you feel that there will not always be a demand to make anonimous purchases, why?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5895
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitcoin is starting to sound less like a currency and more like a faith.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3152

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-prophet wrote:
Will there always be a demand within society to make anonymous purchases? If you believe the answer is yes than for as long as there is demand someone will create a supply. As far as I can tell in the age of e-currency bitcoin is the best way to fill that demand currently but it's descendants will most likely be the ones to fill the demand when it reaches acceptance.

If you feel that there will not always be a demand to make anonimous purchases, why?


No I feel the people that concerned about their internet anonymity probably wont use the internet, will continue to deal in cash and make up too small a fraction of the population to ever make a commodity unbacked by anything but the hopes and dreams of libertarians qualify as currency.

Meanwhile the rest of the world will continue sharing dickpics and tits or gtfo, completely unconcerned about internet anonymity.
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
anti-prophet wrote:
Will there always be a demand within society to make anonymous purchases? If you believe the answer is yes than for as long as there is demand someone will create a supply. As far as I can tell in the age of e-currency bitcoin is the best way to fill that demand currently but it's descendants will most likely be the ones to fill the demand when it reaches acceptance.

If you feel that there will not always be a demand to make anonimous purchases, why?


No I feel the people that concerned about their internet anonymity probably wont use the internet, will continue to deal in cash and make up too small a fraction of the population to ever make a commodity unbacked by anything but the hopes and dreams of libertarians qualify as currency.

Meanwhile the rest of the world will continue sharing dickpics and tits or gtfo, completely unconcerned about internet anonymity.


So the people who are so concerned about Internet anonymity do not currently use bit coin?

Eventually cash currency will stop being made and people will stop being able to use it as it will become a collectable the same as dead currency is now.

Also what is your definition of currency?

Mine is something that is used as a medium of exchange and bitcoin definitely fills that definition.
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