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Say it Loud, Say it Proud
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3714
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want him to tell us how much of an interesting guy he is again.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
the spirit of what he's talking about is that he needs someone to be suffering in order to "appreciate the finer things in life." "the finer things in life" do not stand on their own in his twisted, crippled mind; they require someone else's pain to be appreciable. he can't understand on his own how great it is not to get mugged; he can only understand that if someone else actually gets mugged.

note that he is not saying that we tend to appreciate what we've got only when we lose it or realize that we could lose it; he's saying that we need it, that we cannot appreciate what we have unless other people actually are losing it, that good things are incomprehensible to us if people don't suffer--and by that very reason he is calling for human suffering.

if you think that's worth considering, fine, consider it. just don't go tumbling down into that moral abyss of necessitating the suffering of others for your own gratification with him.

Hate to say it, but I really also read from his stuff the way he said it that he meant to experience it oneself to grow basically. Especially in spots like this:
Arthain wrote:
We are human, humans evolve through conflict. We always have. From the moment we were single celled organism up until the present day we have constantly changed, adapted, grown and evolved through conflict. Conflict is a requirement to continue to grow as a human. Violence is included in that package. If we don't have something to overcome, some adversity to conquer, we will be forever locked in stasis. That's why I never want our world to become peaceful. A peaceful humanity is an evolutionary dead end.
[...]
But violence and conflict, in moderation, is required to be a healthy human being. You'll never learn to appreciate the finer things in life without it. You'll never be able to appreciate LIFE without conflict.

I mean if you REALLY want to try and take it that he's meaning other people's suffering is required to make him a healthy human being, you can. But...that's a large reach based on what you think he's saying off of where the conversation started off of Shadow Master's weird comment.

While I don't exactly agree with him that suffering is always needed for growth, I get the concept. Also, I understand the type of people that do see the world that way. For instance, as my wife just told me to add as a point, her siblings both grew up pompous. It's common. Her family was one of the wealthiest in town. But my wife didn't have that. She was teased and picked on RELENTLESSLY in school, particularly from 4th-Jr. High. So, because of that, she ended up sympathizing heavily with people disadvantaged. Really, even when she kind of became an amazingly beautiful girl, she never got cocky about it or wanted to flaunt it, not wanting to ever have someone else feel like the "ugly duckling" as she'd felt at part of her awkward years.

Actually...the same could be said of parts of my own past. Anyway, random anecdotal stories aside, the idea that we learn from conflict is true. Unless we as humans become better to the point we don't think to hurt someone else or put someone else down to make ourselves better, those of us who don't experience any sort of pain like my wife's siblings, are much more likely to simply be the person who is self-centered and instead puts pain on other people instead. It's the same thing that causes some people to think the world is perfect and there is no more problems with violence or rape, because they've had such peachy lives.

Of course, I'm in the generation that was spanked with a board/fly swatter, etc 25 years ago that I never felt any sort of ill effects from. My parents did so without me ever feeling like they were being mean about it. It was just punishment. So, I'm a little here and there on that issue.

But, if Arthain actually was saying we learn from others, it's not entirely untrue either. If you've never experienced any sort of conflict besides watching movies, you believe it's completely restricted to them. That's where we get people acting like rape and domestic abuse are not problems that we need to be fighting. They legitimately don't want to change their narrow world view. They want to believe that people that get in that deserve it, because it doesn't happen to good people. It's a type of douchebaggery born of naivety.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course there's the other side of people who don't grow from violence, which is why I disagree to some point too. Some people by nature instead are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. It's why you get little kids that were abused going on to abuse little kids in their own life.

We have to realize that there's no one way to categorize all people under one giant all-encompassing stereotype.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it takes a lot more reaching to interpret a general statement of how "we need violence" and therefore "i don't want to see a peaceful humanity" as somehow not applying to the speaker than it takes to interpret it the way i did, which is, applying to the speaker too

for christ's sake, he sounds like a comic book villain trying to put a philosophical veneer on the fact that he built an orbiting death cannon and he's going to use it to kill us all
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One again ShadowCell saves the day.

I would've just gone into another incoherent rant.
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Jonin



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalmBlueSea wrote:
Arkhron wrote:
I am missing the joke. Or the sense. And the whole point. What means this comic? Help!

It's a bad Slutwalk ripoff. I guess the dudebros thought it was actually trying to "take back" the word 'slut', rather than expose much of society's bullshit surrounding female sexuality and rape culture.

So, in their imitation, they just wound up looking like douchebags. Neutral

Also of note: it's Slick leading this, rather than Devil-Slick. Just thought that was interesting. Guess he's still just a fucking idiot and hasn't learned shit, unless this is supposed to be one of those one-off comics that's funny, but we aren't expected to read anything at all into it.


Also evoking the "taking back" or attempt to of the words fag, queer to become a symbol of pride iirc.
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
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Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, the old nuns in school would always tell me that suffering was good for the soul... right before slapping me with a yardstick.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that I don't have to worry about rage induced moments, I'd like to say a few things about the philosophy of enjoying good with the bad.

In a way it is true that if you don't realize what could go wrong, you'd take thing for granted. Like a lot of people take for granted that they can walk when some handicapped people can't. Maybe in 10000 years or so we will have eradicated all the violence and people will take for granted how safe they are and how good they have it.

But then again, is that a bad thing? It's great that many people can walk and it should be even greater that everyone can go anywhere without being afraid.

The thing is that as long as humans are human, violence will never go away. We will never need violence because we will always have too much of it. The mindset of needing violence stems from the idea that there isn't a lot of violence out there, which is fucking naive to say the least.
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Last edited by Yinello on Wed May 08, 2013 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I think that's where a lot of that problem came from. I think that people thought he was going with the concept that there's not violence-a-plenty. Instead, I thought he's more the type that thinks about it more philosophically.

Actually I guess the reason I see how he's talking so quickly, is he sounds like my cousin. He has a crap ton of bad things happen to him, so he tends to think suffering is needed for growing and talks in more the general concept of life. Of course, I feel that the kind of talk only begets more disdain upon oneself. You see the suffering if you're looking for it and think it's important and so you end up experiencing more suffering you didn't need to. Technically though, he's often the type that only learned from things that hurt more than good things. So...dunno. I can't say I get it.


But yeah, the concept that we need violence is a pointless as if we don't have violence, we won't need it. Of course, we could say that without the concept of violence, we'd be pretty boring as a race. We'd be what some Christians believe heaven would be like. Just peace and people being happy.

But there's always types of conflict that is a big part of human nature, so yeah not gonna happen any time soon. Me feeling holier than dudebros or racists is of the same feeling of people feeling better than someone else because their life is more succesful. It's common human behavior to find a reason to feel superior to someone else. It's a bad part of humanity though.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
Actually I guess the reason I see how he's talking so quickly, is he sounds like my cousin. He has a crap ton of bad things happen to him, so he tends to think suffering is needed for growing and talks in more the general concept of life. Of course, I feel that the kind of talk only begets more disdain upon oneself. You see the suffering if you're looking for it and think it's important and so you end up experiencing more suffering you didn't need to. Technically though, he's often the type that only learned from things that hurt more than good things. So...dunno. I can't say I get it.


Oh wow I can totally relate to this. A friend of mine (I know how this sounds, but it is true Razz) got abused a lot by his father. Now he sees his father as some kind of hero because the abuse apparantly helped shaped him to become a good person. And I'm like: good god, don't have kids.

Suffice to say, I don't get it either.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
And I'm like: good god, don't have kids.

Haha, true. Some people like that really are likely to pass on the same kind of suffering they themselves endured. I have no idea why some people learn from and don't repeat mistakes and others embody it. Is it intelligence? Personality type? Good outside role-model that helped you see the difference? Who knows.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same impression you did of the posts he was making, that personal suffering can enhance the quality, or at least your perception of the quality, of life. With regards to your cousin, suffering can become all consuming and just builds and builds on itself. I've been though my fair share of suffering and I admit that for a long time I just wallowed in it. Eventually I learned that suffering is actually a choice. The pain I feel all day isn't a choice, I can't decide to stop feeling it, but suffering is a reaction to pain, grief, etc. and (admittedly with help) you can learn that you can react to these these things in alternative ways rather then allow yourself to suffer.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I could like forum posts.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conflict makes great stories, but there doesn't have to be violence for conflict to exist. This kind of argument goes great along with, "Well, one gender has to lord it over another, so equality can't exist."

Being abused fucks people up. While there are those who come out of it stronger, there are plenty who don't.

I'll also point out that there is a difference between choosing to participate in violence and having it thrust upon you. Someone choosing to join the military, a place where you expect to be abused in a way that is conducive to your learning, can grow quite a bit. Someone choosing to enter into a romantic relationship for the purpose of building a life together is not signing on to face that kind of adversity - and an abuser is not interested in helping the abused grow into a more strong person. They are interested in keeping the abused just alive enough to get something out of them.

Also, children growing up in violent situations haven't had time to grow into stable human beings. They will learn to cope if they stay alive, but that coping isn't a long term strategy.

Also, here are four letters to keep in mind:

PTSD
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Jody



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, experience has taught me that people that seek excuses for true violence and conflict have rarely had any of their own. The fact that he immediately started whining when called out about it reaffirms this for me, but I digress.

None of the people I know that have been beaten, raped, served in a war zone, or otherwise brutalized ever considered themselves better people for the experience. Pretty much all of them would have just rather it never have happened in the first place. Many of them were irrevocably changed. Some were left a shell of what they once were, and a couple of them even killed themselves. Still others, with years of counseling, managed to recover to a point where they could function somewhat normally in society. In other words, almost back to square one.

So, yeah. When I see someone saying "violence is good and necessary", or words to that effect, I see someone that likes living vicariously thru the suffering of others.
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