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2013-05-09: Madam and Eve
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1150
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthain wrote:
However it's very interesting to watch these debates. Whenever there is something that glorifies the Sisterhood and condemns the Patriarchy the Sisterhood advocates all come out of the wood work and support the message, they dig deep and find every tiny little message they can that supports their side and condemns men and 'dudebros'. Then they'll dig trenches, stake the ground and set up artillery and literally insult, berate and verbally assault anyone that disagrees with them. All of the threads I bothered to stick around and read have usually all devolved into name calling and insults because neither side wants to relent or come to some form of mutual agreement or middle ground.

However whenever the OPPOSITE occurs the Sisterhood advocates all pass it off as nothing more than a joke, pointless, satire and not serious. They won't try to defend the actions and arguments of the individuals in the strip, they'll just try to wipe it all off the board by stating it's not meant to be serious and that everyone should lighten up and stop reading too much into the strip.

Actually, the big reason that is has to do with how easy it is for people interpret Tat's message, and frankly, the reason people write things like this off as a joke is simple. It's his style of writing. People don't change the way they right every other strip. Based on Tat's style, you can imply that he means this as a joke. It's only if you're looking for hidden messages and Tat's secret misandry that so many people take it as something negative.

I do however agree with some that it's possible this strip could show a bit of the character's personally, but only that it gives SOME light to her personality. I still don't think she actually means any of the random stuff she says by any means, since the others don't react to her, typical of Tat's style. I'm 90% sure it's just her random sarcastic heckling nature or something like that we're starting to see.



Granted, people all over-analyze the crap out of these comics, but there is a bottom line of why the above issue happens. These comics are based on a real issue that a lot of the forum feels strongly about and has been debated many times over the last year+ with random people showing up using some new moment in the comics to complain about Feminism, etc. 90% of these random new people in the debates don't listen when people post facts. They just declare anecdotal evidence at most about what's wrong with Feminism. So most of the seasoned debaters stop.

It's the SAME debates every time with random new douchebags that think they're saying something that hasn't been heard. Every once and awhile there's intelligible debate from certain members (most long term) that is interesting, but for the most part...It's just random people that think they're smarter than they are. They all seem to not know anything about facts or how to hold an argument. People don't care after awhile. So, eventually people just get tired of it and end up yelling at one another. Or certain members that just like to yell insults to begin with are the only ones to show up at ALL. Wink

Most of us who actually would debate things are without equal debate partners or are tired of having the same debate with people not capable/willing to listen to thoughtful information.
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
crayven wrote:
And then cheering for a lesbian couple - of which one woman seems to be a deranged psychotic.


Dude, the lesbians are literally only in one panel. The long haired puppet of the first panel is Eve. Long haired puppet in the third panel is a female Jesus. There is literally nothing for you to deduce that one of them seems to be a deranged psychotic.

crayven wrote:
Wonder what would happen if the genders would be reversed.


What part of gender inequality do you just not understand? If the genders were reversed the statement would hold a different weight to it. The difference is, oh, I dunno, maybe a couple hundred years of the oppression of an entire gender?

Wait, are you back to blaming MODERN men for what happened CENTURIES ago?
You know like...RELIGION does?
Wow !

How about you recognize your double-standard and "deal with it" ( to quote your avatar ) ?
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Arthain



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Debates are healthy, they are great tools to help expand an individuals mind and understanding, but ONLY if they're kept civil. If you start to insult someone, that person immediately becomes defensive and will completely tune out and ignore anything you have to say afterwards. You can have the most brilliant argument ever conceived, but if you insult an individual before after or during that argument, you've just ruined the entire thing. They'll ignore it and learn nothing. The key to a good debate is to not give into emotions. You keep it to objective facts and observations and leave opinions at the door.

It's why I hate seeing these threads devolve into bickering. All you're doing at that point is venting. You're not proving a point, you're not educating, you're not debating or expanding horizons. You're just starting a fight.
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthain wrote:
However it's very interesting to watch these debates. Whenever there is something that glorifies the Sisterhood and condemns the Patriarchy the Sisterhood advocates all come out of the wood work and support the message, they dig deep and find every tiny little message they can that supports their side and condemns men and 'dudebros'. Then they'll dig trenches, stake the ground and set up artillery and literally insult, berate and verbally assault anyone that disagrees with them. All of the threads I bothered to stick around and read have usually all devolved into name calling and insults because neither side wants to relent or come to some form of mutual agreement or middle ground.

However whenever the OPPOSITE occurs the Sisterhood advocates all pass it off as nothing more than a joke, pointless, satire and not serious. They won't try to defend the actions and arguments of the individuals in the strip, they'll just try to wipe it all off the board by stating it's not meant to be serious and that everyone should lighten up and stop reading too much into the strip.


THIS is spot on !
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
Wait, are you back to blaming MODERN men for what happened CENTURIES ago?


sensually whispers in your ear "modern men still do shitty and oppressive things to women daily"




and no, that isn't what i'm saying at all. i'm saying that there's a LONG HISTORY of this sort of shit. which does not compare to a few individual women saying something along the lines of KILL ALL MEN. because, oooh, guess what, even though yeah, individual women do terrible and shitty things to men sometimes; it literally does not compare to the HISTORY of what men, as an entire fucking gender, has done to women, as an entire fucking gender. ╰(✿⌣`✿)╯
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5899
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm quite enjoying the spectacle of people like crayven, who defends explicitly racist humor, and Arthain, who squeals about how "violence and conflict are necessary for me to enjoy the goodness in life" and then threatens to LEAVE THE INTERNET FOREVER because someone conflicted with him but apparently wasn't serious about that either, suddenly squawking about how mean and poor-taste this comic is, and then shrieking about "double standards." you guys are like politicians.

of course, i don't know what crayven is all worked up about, since "kill all men!" should jive pretty well with a guy who hates men more than anyone else here ever could.
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Arthain



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
crayven wrote:
Wait, are you back to blaming MODERN men for what happened CENTURIES ago?


sensually whispers in your ear "modern men still do shitty and oppressive things to women daily"




and no, that isn't what i'm saying at all. i'm saying that there's a LONG HISTORY of this sort of shit. which does not compare to a few individual women saying something along the lines of KILL ALL MEN. because, oooh, guess what, even though yeah, individual women do terrible and shitty things to men sometimes; it literally does not compare to the HISTORY of what men, as an entire fucking gender, has done to women, as an entire fucking gender. ╰(✿⌣`✿)╯


There's no doubt that women were treated poorly in the past, but you also need to realize the mentality was different back then, so was society. Neither of us truly know how women, or men for that matter, felt back then. It's obvious things changed and women want more rights now, that's great, it should given to them. However it should be 'equal' rights in 'all' facets of society. There should be no 'I want equal rights here but still retain the preferential treatment there' type situations (This happens a LOT in the court of law, especially when it comes to child custody, females are automatically favored over men unless there's an OVERWHELMING amount of evidence to suggest the female is unfit to parent). This goes from home and hearth to equal treatment under the law to equal opportunities in the workplace and society at large.

My personal views is that there should be complete equality. I'd love to see prejudice, racism, sexism, inequality, all of it, disappear. I want to see myself and everyone else treated exactly the same. This includes the good, the bad and the ugly. No one should get preferential treatment just because they're a different color, gender or have a different political or religious view.

Sadly not very many people share my opinion.

Edit: Oh and ShadowCell, perhaps you should try to be more civil, it gets your point across better. Just for reference though, I was talking about that thread when I mentioned walking away.


Last edited by Arthain on Thu May 09, 2013 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
I find the reaction towards the previous panel by forum members and the reaction to this one....telling.
It's first bashing a heterosexual couple for...uhm..existing basically.
And then cheering for a lesbian couple - of which one woman seems to be a deranged psychotic.
Not to mention the phrase "kill all men" doesn't help their view point AND has been uttered more than once during this arc.

Again the reactions are one sided on this forum.
Wonder what would happen if the genders would be reversed.


Mmm, not quite.
As others have noted, the youngest/shortest one is the one doing what qualifies as actual bashing, such as suggesting that Eve dump Adam for no reason at all, or the 'Kill all men' thing. She's probably in that spot where you feel like talking radically is cool and passionate, regardless of whether those are your actual views. A lot of us have been there, I think.

The other two have been making comments that are more generic - such as calling God's presentation of the Adam and Eve puppets as 'heteronormative' and 'gender binary', which is something that is being promoted when it is God putting on a puppet show.

I quite like these two strips because they establish diversity within the feminist movement that exists for real, rather than paint them all as unrealistically virtuous and reasonable - and quite tellingly, you seem to be making the same mistake a lot of people criticising feminism make, namely lumping feminists all in the same group based on the actions/statements of a radical few. You're talking about them as a whole, and not differentiating between the different statements they're making.

Feminism is a movement like any other, which means that it's run by people, who tend to be flawed. It is also something learned through hard experience over time - I know I and a few others had some whacked out notions of feminism when I was, say, fifteen - notions that were not only vaguely misandrist, but included internalised misogyny as well, such as derision for "girly" girls. You all know what I'm talking about.
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
crayven wrote:
Wait, are you back to blaming MODERN men for what happened CENTURIES ago?


sensually whispers in your ear "modern men still do shitty and oppressive things to women daily"




and no, that isn't what i'm saying at all. i'm saying that there's a LONG HISTORY of this sort of shit. which does not compare to a few individual women saying something along the lines of KILL ALL MEN. because, oooh, guess what, even though yeah, individual women do terrible and shitty things to men sometimes; it literally does not compare to the HISTORY of what men, as an entire fucking gender, has done to women, as an entire fucking gender. ╰(✿⌣`✿)╯

Stop trying to slowly divert things from "individual" to "women as an entire fucking gender".
I am a man who hasn't done anything of the sorts and yet by being a MAN you automatically staple the label on me because of "history" ( wooooo be scared ! )
This is just ridiculous.

Edit:
How did you get your avatar picture to be so large? Above the 100x100 limit i mean.


Last edited by crayven on Thu May 09, 2013 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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crayven



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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
i'm quite enjoying the spectacle of people like crayven, who defends explicitly racist humor, and Arthain, who squeals about how "violence and conflict are necessary for me to enjoy the goodness in life" and then threatens to LEAVE THE INTERNET FOREVER because someone conflicted with him but apparently wasn't serious about that either, suddenly squawking about how mean and poor-taste this comic is, and then shrieking about "double standards." you guys are like politicians.

of course, i don't know what crayven is all worked up about, since "kill all men!" should jive pretty well with a guy who hates men more than anyone else here ever could.

Yes i am sure the racism of heterosexual love is abundant, how could i have missed it and yet the awesome Shadowcell did not. Woe is me !
But hey if it's lesbian love then it's the same shadowcel screaching "you go girlfriend !!"

And this isn't about "hate men" or "hate women". Your world, i know, is black or white but normal people don't think like that.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 282

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
They're lying on the grass looking at sockpuppets. Take a fucking guess.


Point taken.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 1663
Location: im probably asleep right now

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
Stop trying to slowly divert things from "individual" to "women as an entire fucking gender".
I am a man who hasn't done anything of the sorts and yet by being a MAN you automatically staple the label on me because of "history" ( wooooo be scared ! )
This is just ridiculous.


what

i haven't labeled you as anything in that post, where exactly are you getting these ridiculous claims?

you want to be labeled as something? fine, ok, i hereby label you as Kind Of A Shitty Person. and you wanna know why you're labeled as kind of a shitty person? because youve displayed NOTHING but traits of shitty behavior as a shitty person; and although we don't know for certain how shitty you are offline - maybe you are an ok person offline! i'll never know - we can only go by your behavior online, and basically, you behave like a shitty person with backward, ignorant beliefs.

you are someone who refuses to listen to anything anyone has to say to you unless it's what you want to hear and has displayed nothing but, again, ignorant beliefs with little to no foundation. and when it's pointed out to you, you basically stick your fingers and your ears and scream LA LA LA LA LA IM NOT LISTENING repeatedly

individual men can be awesome, though as a collective gender they have done shitty things. individual women can be horrible, though as a collective gender shitty things have been done to them over the centuries. more shitty things are done to women than men, and because of it statements like "I HATE WOMEN" carry a different weight from "I HATE MEN"

sure, i believe that nobody should hate anybody! and shitty things shouldn't be done to anyone, no matter what! but the sooner we acknowledge that, hey, shitty things have happened. shitty things ARE happening, the sooner we can all work together to stop shitty things from happening. end of story.

i believe that good people sometimes do shitty things, and that's ok! as long as they realize that it's shitty, and they grow from it, it doesn't define whether or not they are a shitty person!

because if society raises you and teaches you to believe that shitty things are what's right then of course you might not get right away that it's kind of shitty

but what defines whether or not you are a shitty person is how willing you are to listen to reason, or how willing you are to question the shitty things, are you willing to think, huh, maybe that was kind of shitty? if someone is upset, or hurt, or offended, uncomfortable, scared, whatever! are you going to sit down and ask why? and, when presented with a reason, are you going to fucking listen and remove harmful behavior?

the point i'm making here, is that there is a huge imbalance between genders! and everyone needs to recognize it! the sooner it's recognized, the sooner that shit gets fixed. sooner that shit gets fixed, sooner everybody gets to be equal and happy.

now sit the fuck down and eat your lucky charms.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I'm still going to go with Lil' Sis not getting it. Mostly because I don't have evidence against that idea.

And honestly, how bad is that? I think that we could use a less perfect sisterhood. Mostly because, before that, the characters kinda did seem like a hivemind, where we could replace any character for any other and it would seem in-character. That's... A problem with the storytelling.

The important thing is to understand that it wouldn't reflect on Tat's views. He just makes characters.
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Geareye



Joined: 21 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

And honestly, how bad is that? I think that we could use a less perfect sisterhood. Mostly because, before that, the characters kinda did seem like a hivemind, where we could replace any character for any other and it would seem in-character. That's... A problem with the storytelling.

The important thing is to understand that it wouldn't reflect on Tat's views. He just makes characters.


Agreed, the story could develop more amusingly -to me at least- if there was greater diversity within the sisterhood. Little sis could offer that. And if done in a goofy/bashing way we could have nice scenes, with Nana calming her down, productive discussions with non-douchy men like Crimney, all that.

Also, Miss M, before I say what I am about to say, I want to first state that I , for the most part, agree with your post. It is true on a historical basis.

But, I have to statements I disagree with. Actually one, the other is more of a question.
Miss Magenta wrote:
as a collective gender they have done some shitty things

I disagree with that mentality. Obviously, you don't mean that men made collectively a hive-mind conscious decision to do shitty things. Because, well...there's not an organic background for them to do it, so that's not what you meant. What I assume you meant was that many men did many shitty things throughout the centuries. I agree with that, but I don't see what bearing this can have on an individual man, now. If said man does shitty things now, that's another thing, but until something like this happens, I don't see how it is relevant to any specific individual. There's no such thing as "historical gender guilt" .

And for the second, with which I don't have a disagreement, but a question :
Miss Magenta wrote:
more shitty things are done to women than men, and because of it statements like "I HATE WOMEN" carry a different weight from "I HATE MEN"


My question is to why you think they carry diffenet weight. The possibility that I see is because the "I HATE WOMEN" is more likely to poke at a wound than the "I HATE MEN", since more women than men have wounds due to the nature of our shitty society. Is that correct?
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geareye wrote:
Miss Magenta wrote:
as a collective gender they have done some shitty things

I disagree with that mentality. Obviously, you don't mean that men made collectively a hive-mind conscious decision to do shitty things. Because, well...there's not an organic background for them to do it, so that's not what you meant. What I assume you meant was that many men did many shitty things throughout the centuries. I agree with that, but I don't see what bearing this can have on an individual man, now. If said man does shitty things now, that's another thing, but until something like this happens, I don't see how it is relevant to any specific individual. There's no such thing as "historical gender guilt" .


It's less about, well, guilt, and more about being mindful of the past! Like, it's important to keep in mind that women have to go through a lot of shit so it's probably preferable if you're considerate towards them and what they have to say, and in general acknowledge the terrible things that have happened in the past so y'all can work together to improve the future.

Like, individuals aren't terrible! Individuals, are, well, individual, each one is different! Some may be, some may not be. What I'm trying to say, here, I guess, is that individuals apart of one gender have to acknowledge what their gender, as a collective group of people, has done and continues to do to another gender. You feel me?

Geareye wrote:
And for the second, with which I don't have a disagreement, but a question :
Miss Magenta wrote:
more shitty things are done to women than men, and because of it statements like "I HATE WOMEN" carry a different weight from "I HATE MEN"


My question is to why you think they carry diffenet weight. The possibility that I see is because the "I HATE WOMEN" is more likely to poke at a wound than the "I HATE MEN", since more women than men have wounds due to the nature of our shitty society. Is that correct?


That is, indeed, what I'm going for. It pokes at the wound, and in general, kind of has the inequality and internalized misogyny that permeates society behind it's back. :(
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