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What is feminism anyway?
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that was, more or less, my original point.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
but don't you see it would have been so much easier not to do anything about any of that

You know, an alien invasion could solve all of these problems by oppressing all of us. Laughing

Social issues are things we ought to fight for, sure, but there are some things we can't really ever fight, and it's those kinds of things that I am referring to when I say that oppression is inevitable.

I mean, short of total isolation (although I hear even existing involves some degree of exploitation), someone or something is going to be exploited or oppressed, or some academic in France is going to come up with a whole school of thought that says something to that effect.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
Social issues are things we ought to fight for, sure, but there are some things we can't really ever fight, and it's those kinds of things that I am referring to when I say that oppression is inevitable.


Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote:
I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because something is inevitable doesn't mean you can't do your damnedest to fight it.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
but don't you see it would have been so much easier not to do anything about any of that

You know, an alien invasion could solve all of these problems by oppressing all of us. Laughing

Social issues are things we ought to fight for, sure, but there are some things we can't really ever fight, and it's those kinds of things that I am referring to when I say that oppression is inevitable.

I mean, short of total isolation (although I hear even existing involves some degree of exploitation), someone or something is going to be exploited or oppressed, or some academic in France is going to come up with a whole school of thought that says something to that effect.

Well it's good that you cleared that up. Can I go ahead and mark this down as pointless mental masturbation that doesn't really have any point (let alone evidence)?
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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aboutwhistles



Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell, thanks for that MLK, jr. quote. It's one of my favorites.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reminds me of when I was telling a kid at a burger joint I worked at that I was moving out of the South. He asked why, so I told him: The wages were bad ($5.00 an hour minumum wage), I knew a lot better people in other states, and I wanted to live in a less homophobic place.

He thought I should stay. When I asked why, his response was, "Sometimes we just have to do things we don't want to do."

Which is true, but was not in this case - because there was literally no reason for me to stick around.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Social justice is a thing you do. Equality is a thing you try to get.

So? Working for equality, reaching equality... That's all fine by me. Being spiteful? ehh. We had a problem of understanding terms that we have now probably resolved Razz


It's important to understand what people are talking about, though. If something is an action and not a noun, it is good to know. I was not grammar policing, I was explaining an important distinction.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:

Yay! I like how I said it was both pointless and "doesn't really have any point."

Because I'm thorough.

And also sleepy.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

super off topic here but this has come up a few times scattered amongst the different threads, stripeypants, you mentioned working in texas for $5. hr. I see that it has now been increased to something like $7.25/ hr. whatever percent increase that it probably only just barely accounts for inflation, not for the increases in cost of living expenses. Georgia is still only making a $5.15/ hr. minimum wage while dogen off in washington sitting pretty on sacks stuffed the minimum wages of his fellow washingtonians who lead the country in minimum wages ay @9.19/hr.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading through the thread, I think I'm even more confused than before. Feminism vs "gender egalitarianism", what?

cleocatra wrote:
I like my link

I like your link. That is fairly straight to the point.

Dogen wrote:
So now I think this thread should be a repository for links to educational material about feminism, so we can point people (like me) to it when they have questions.

This should be done.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
super off topic here but this has come up a few times scattered amongst the different threads, stripeypants, you mentioned working in texas for $5. hr. I see that it has now been increased to something like $7.25/ hr. whatever percent increase that it probably only just barely accounts for inflation, not for the increases in cost of living expenses. Georgia is still only making a $5.15/ hr. minimum wage while dogen off in washington sitting pretty on sacks stuffed the minimum wages of his fellow washingtonians who lead the country in minimum wages ay @9.19/hr.


Wait what. Do you mean Georgia the state in the U.S.? The U.S. federal minimum wage is $7.25. Unless you're a server who gets tips (or something similar), you can't legally make less than that in this country.

...And yet, Wikipedia says you're right about Georgia. How? I thought federal outranked state when it came to these things. Arkansas, too! And Wyoming! SOMEONE EXPLAIN, PLEASE.

Eww, and apparently in Arkasas and Georgia, you only have to pay minimum if you have so many employees. How is anyone going to want to work at a small business with that going on?
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BiQ



Joined: 27 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Eww, and apparently in Arkasas and Georgia, you only have to pay minimum if you have so many employees. How is anyone going to want to work at a small business with that going on?


Maybe it beats being unemployed? Someone could even say it's a capitalistic power structure being unfavorable for the employees...

(Disclaimer: I have no idea at all how hard it is being unemployed in anywhere outside of my nordic welfare state country is)
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think maybe the most important thing (or at least something that's way up there) is to stop straw-manning the other sex(es).

People who don't identify as feminists will never make any progress or even be able to really understand feminism until they stop thinking we're all angry, bra-burning lesbians who can't get laid, etc.

Similarly, people who do identify as feminists will never make any progress if they think every person who brings up a point is a misogynistic moron who can't put his/her own shoes on.

I needed help tying my shoes long after my classmates. I actually got velcro shoes specifically so I didn't have to deal with untied shoes at school. So no offense, shoe-people.

Also, seriously, fuck bras.


I can't believe how many people I've met who were simply misinformed. Once I explained to my cousin why it wasn't okay to ask if a woman was on her period when she was mad, he stopped. Once, I made friends with an MRA because he had a few good points. We are no longer friends because he had this whole victim-blaming issue that kept seeping through, but the point is that I listened to him, he listened to me, and it turned out we agreed on a lot of things-- he just thought "feminism" was a dirty word and that feminists hate men until I talked to him.

As for his good points, he was concerned about:
- How violence against men perpetrated by women is rarely taken seriously (which is true, and which has its roots in sexism against women, so both sides are hurt by this)
- How men aren't trusted to care for children (similar issue to the above)
- How men can be drafted, but women can't (see above parentheses)
- Etc.

Men and women have the same goals. Sometimes it just takes a push for us to realize that.
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