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2013-05-22: Thing
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:

Explain to me what you mean by systemic power. if you fallowed my link to the "New Data on the Rise of Women" you see that economically, the power is shifting, and not only that, but women are becoming much more succesful than men in high pay, less physical labor jobs. Women are gaining the power, less men are graduating. They even say that men are the new "ball and chain".


This one woman in the TED talk takes some statistics and scewers them for her own agenda - to empower women.

Yes females graduate more. We've done that for decades now. The problem is females also dominate fields that are not very useful. Arts, crafts, literature etc. Fields that don't automatically lead to power, jobs or money. Looking at economy, political sciences, management, STEM fields they are all still male dominated. In some fields massively so.

MRA groups often use this "more females already graduate!" argument to lobby against universites trying to level the graduation rates in these problematic areas where there still is a very real problem with a gender disparity. It's an unfair and irrelevant argument then, and it is an unfair and irrelevant argument in the TED talk. As much as I'd love to see it, arts students aren't going to rule the world any time soon.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 1096
Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I look at 2 comix every morning & enjoy when they synchronize a little


I AM AN ALPHA MALE

*beats hairy, well-built chest and boasts boisterously about how much productivity and efficiency in his office has improved with the purchase of a new espresso machine*
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To find more specific references from more specific sources, I kind of need to know exactly how far back I need to go with you. There is plenty of well-documented historical -everything- regarding women's oppression that has happened for freaking ever. I gave you some pieces that mostly define some basic starting terms. Where is your question and your doubt on this? What is the claim that you want proved or disproved?

You're asking a question that, to answer comprehensively with full academic sources, would take a full academic course of study and beyond. Narrow it down for me, wouldja?

I can only assume from your citing of women's progress in some fields, that you see women getting ahead by any measure as evidence that systemic privilege isn't a thing. Hey, progress is great. But arguments like that one you posit here become frustrating in and of themselves, because they tend to rely on the unspoken premise that women can never, at any point in any field, for any length of time, rise above men without it proving that we've got the upper-hand in general.

Are you presenting that one point as proof that women have the upper hand in society? By what definition? If so, how does that one point do so?

And how does that notion square with these? http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=feminization+of+poverty&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=cHmcUfXqLonEyQHE_oHIDA&ved=0CDAQgQMwAA
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Explain to me what you mean by systemic power. if you fallowed my link to the "New Data on the Rise of Women" you see that economically, the power is shifting, and not only that, but women are becoming much more succesful than men in high pay, less physical labor jobs. Women are gaining the power, less men are graduating. They even say that men are the new "ball and chain".


This one woman in the TED talk takes some statistics and scewers them for her own agenda - to empower women.

Yes females graduate more. We've done that for decades now. The problem is females also dominate fields that are not very useful. Arts, crafts, literature etc. Fields that don't automatically lead to power, jobs or money. Looking at economy, political sciences, management, STEM fields they are all still male dominated. In some fields massively so.

MRA groups often use this "more females already graduate!" argument to lobby against universites trying to level the graduation rates in these problematic areas where there still is a very real problem with a gender disparity. It's an unfair and irrelevant argument then, and it is an unfair and irrelevant argument in the TED talk. As much as I'd love to see it, arts students aren't going to rule the world any time soon.


But more women are getting the higher paying jobs. Those graphs aren't there just to say that women are graduating, yes that is true, but its apparent that men are NOT getting into the higher paying work its being domninated by women now, we have to take the low wage jobs.

The video isn't just saying women are graduating, its showing that women are getting these high paying jobs, much more frequently than men.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
Quote:
I look at 2 comix every morning & enjoy when they synchronize a little


I AM AN ALPHA MALE

*beats hairy, well-built chest and boasts boisterously about how much productivity and efficiency in his office has improved with the purchase of a new espresso machine*


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWTclwsq73A
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 1096
Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aaaaAAAaAAaaAAaaaaaAAAAAaaaaaaah!!!
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Yrvani wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Explain to me what you mean by systemic power. if you fallowed my link to the "New Data on the Rise of Women" you see that economically, the power is shifting, and not only that, but women are becoming much more succesful than men in high pay, less physical labor jobs. Women are gaining the power, less men are graduating. They even say that men are the new "ball and chain".


This one woman in the TED talk takes some statistics and scewers them for her own agenda - to empower women.

Yes females graduate more. We've done that for decades now. The problem is females also dominate fields that are not very useful. Arts, crafts, literature etc. Fields that don't automatically lead to power, jobs or money. Looking at economy, political sciences, management, STEM fields they are all still male dominated. In some fields massively so.

MRA groups often use this "more females already graduate!" argument to lobby against universites trying to level the graduation rates in these problematic areas where there still is a very real problem with a gender disparity. It's an unfair and irrelevant argument then, and it is an unfair and irrelevant argument in the TED talk. As much as I'd love to see it, arts students aren't going to rule the world any time soon.


But more women are getting the higher paying jobs. Those graphs aren't there just to say that women are graduating, yes that is true, but its apparent that men are NOT getting into the higher paying work its being domninated by women now, we have to take the low wage jobs.

The video isn't just saying women are graduating, its showing that women are getting these high paying jobs, much more frequently than men.


Women getting higher paying jobs over a brief span of time is not the same as women in this country being paid more than men, or women having the majority of high paying jobs. Even if some ground is being gained in some fields, that doesn't mean that we're all caught up, let alone ahead. That means that men are losing -some- of their currently-held advantage. There is still not a state in this nation where women's pay cannot be represented as a percentage of men's pay. Men, in the aggregate, are still making more of the money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States

As well as the scholarly articles I already linked you to that talk about how women suffer from poverty disproportionately.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
aaaaAAAaAAaaAAaaaaaAAAAAaaaaaaah!!!


SO MANLY! >:O http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXvtany3mSE
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
To find more specific references from more specific sources, I kind of need to know exactly how far back I need to go with you. There is plenty of well-documented historical -everything- regarding women's oppression that has happened for freaking ever. I gave you some pieces that mostly define some basic starting terms. Where is your question and your doubt on this? What is the claim that you want proved or disproved?

You're asking a question that, to answer comprehensively with full academic sources, would take a full academic course of study and beyond. Narrow it down for me, wouldja?

I can only assume from your citing of women's progress in some fields, that you see women getting ahead by any measure as evidence that systemic privilege isn't a thing. Hey, progress is great. But arguments like that one you posit here become frustrating in and of themselves, because they tend to rely on the unspoken premise that women can never, at any point in any field, for any length of time, rise above men without it proving that we've got the upper-hand in general.

Are you presenting that one point as proof that women have the upper hand in society? By what definition? If so, how does that one point do so?

And how does that notion square with these? http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=feminization+of+poverty&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=cHmcUfXqLonEyQHE_oHIDA&ved=0CDAQgQMwAA


Well if I could actually READ them without getting the first paragraph free, I would tell you. But I will say this, my TED video, was made in 2010, all these books, are from 1999 and before. So a lot of these books are out of date and not been revised. So yeah, there was a feminization of poverty, but considering I cant find anything current on the first page Im taking this with a grain of salt now.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
SO MANLY! >:O http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXvtany3mSE


WE ARE MEN

WE ARE HETEROSEXUALS

WE HAVE PENISES
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Last edited by Istancow on Wed May 22, 2013 8:23 am; edited 3 times in total
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Yrvani wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Explain to me what you mean by systemic power. if you fallowed my link to the "New Data on the Rise of Women" you see that economically, the power is shifting, and not only that, but women are becoming much more succesful than men in high pay, less physical labor jobs. Women are gaining the power, less men are graduating. They even say that men are the new "ball and chain".


This one woman in the TED talk takes some statistics and scewers them for her own agenda - to empower women.

Yes females graduate more. We've done that for decades now. The problem is females also dominate fields that are not very useful. Arts, crafts, literature etc. Fields that don't automatically lead to power, jobs or money. Looking at economy, political sciences, management, STEM fields they are all still male dominated. In some fields massively so.

MRA groups often use this "more females already graduate!" argument to lobby against universites trying to level the graduation rates in these problematic areas where there still is a very real problem with a gender disparity. It's an unfair and irrelevant argument then, and it is an unfair and irrelevant argument in the TED talk. As much as I'd love to see it, arts students aren't going to rule the world any time soon.


But more women are getting the higher paying jobs. Those graphs aren't there just to say that women are graduating, yes that is true, but its apparent that men are NOT getting into the higher paying work its being domninated by women now, we have to take the low wage jobs.

The video isn't just saying women are graduating, its showing that women are getting these high paying jobs, much more frequently than men.


Women getting higher paying jobs over a brief span of time is not the same as women in this country being paid more than men, or women having the majority of high paying jobs. Even if some ground is being gained in some fields, that doesn't mean that we're all caught up, let alone ahead. That means that men are losing -some- of their currently-held advantage. There is still not a state in this nation where women's pay cannot be represented as a percentage of men's pay. Men, in the aggregate, are still making more of the money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States

As well as the scholarly articles I already linked you to that talk about how women suffer from poverty disproportionately.


http://www.economica.ca/ew07_1p2.htm

I love that article, it does show that there is a wage gap, BUT it also talks in its last paragraph that females tend to go into different jobs than males, and that those jobs have different wages thus leading to ::GASP:: A WAGE GAP!
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, because the problems of poverty can totes be solved in 10-15 years.

2010: http://www.legalmomentum.org/our-work/women-and-poverty/resources--publications/single-mother-poverty-2010.pdf

2012: http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?id=978-0-7864-4903-3
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
[url]SO MANLY! >:O http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXvtany3mSE[/url]

WE ARE MEN

WE ARE HETEROSEXUALS

WE HAVE PENISES


So THAT is where I keep hearing "you touch my tra-la-la" from. O_O

Great videos, and I approve, my fellow mustachioed commentator! However, as manly as we both may be, I fear that we may never be as manly as this brave fellow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ugjRblo0RI

Honestly though, it cracks me up how excited the crowd gets over his beard. XD

Also, I have to admit that a youtube comment said it better than I ever could: "Nothing says 'my hetero side just won' like an impromptu tap dance number."


Last edited by Gibson22 on Wed May 22, 2013 8:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
I love that article, it does show that there is a wage gap, BUT it also talks in its last paragraph that females tend to go into different jobs than males, and that those jobs have different wages thus leading to ::GASP:: A WAGE GAP!


I knew you were gonna bring that up in response to the wage gap. It's a sadly predictable derail.

What does that have to do with your previous argument that women are doing better than men now? It just seeks to explain why we're not.

If women choose different career paths than men, why? The why is a very crucial question there. What are their real choices, what influences the options available, what are the opportunity costs women must navigate around? These questions are not irrelevant.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2675
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great, I just got here and already things are heading to all the wrong places.
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