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2013-05-22: Thing
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3418
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide you're reading things into this that no one ever said to you, and if you would stop being so defensive for one fucking minute and read what people say, you would be able to see this.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3418
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALSO MISGENDERING TO WIN POINTS IS FUCKING STUPID.

HURRY UP WE'LL GET TO 40 PAGES IN NO TIME.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Rothide you're reading things into this that no one ever said to you, and if you would stop being so defensive for one fucking minute and read what people say, you would be able to see this.


Then explain it one last time please, and if I still don't get if, feel free to hunt me down and fucking shoot me to stop this idiocy from spreading.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what, never mind, I don't want to cause any more fucking pain here.

Here's good old rothide, able to fail on fucking easy mode.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what, I almost felt sorry for you for a bit there. I really almost did, because self-doubt sucks, and life is hard even on "easy mode."

But if you are honestly okay with having your personal worth artificially inflated to any degree in order to not have to discover what your worth is without the padding, at the cost of condemning another class of people to stunted lives, then you prove by that fact alone that you are a pathetic and worthless excuse for a human being.

So, are you worth anything or aren't you? Do you care that other people suffer from a system that you benefit from, or are you going to shut it all out in order to avoid ever having to face yourself without that buffer?

Your move.


Last edited by Rune on Sat May 25, 2013 2:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here, Rothide, this is what you should have done some time ago:

"Ok, I've spent a while thinking about the discussion and managed to notice what the problem was.

I'm sorry. While I had walked in with the intent to have a polite conversation, I was too focused on my own ideas and am afraid didn't notice or took in account some of the posts of my 'opposers.'

From the point where I was pointed that out and forward... Yeah, I'm afraid that it was a downward spiral of me getting angry and more and more posts getting me angry until we reached here. I guess that the wiser alternative would be to leave the thread now before it gets worse.

I know that I still have lots to learn and would really want to have more of these conversations, so I hope that you can forgive my past, absolutely unintended attitudes, and are willing to give me another chance to chat in the future."

This is how you apologize and sound sincere in the process. I made up some details, but I'm sure that with this model and carefully explaining what you felt during this ordeal, you can manage to post without stripeypants telling you the rules or most of the forum mocking you.

Nobody has a problem with you as a person. But we want you to realize that you have a problem in your speech and how you handle other people, and it's not doing you or the forum any favours.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I don't shoot people. I don't wish you dead. I will call you fuckface and other names, but I'm not wishing anyone dead. Life is too precious.

Now then.


WELCOME TO FEMINISM 101

A)WHY IS THIS BEING CALLED FEMINISM 101?

You are asking to be taught. You aren't paying me and you've been behaving poorly and you've been impossible. Therefore, before I try to teach you, you are required to read my syllabus. If you do not read or agree to my syllabus, you

B) INSTRUCTIONS:
Now, read the following. Read it and don't come back to me with stupid shit that shows you obviously didn't read it and you would rather the conversation be, "But feminists want to steal my scrotum!"

When you ask, plead, beg someone to be your teacher, then you surrender to their methods. YOU are asking to be taught, and that means you have to follow the rules. If you hate it, you are free to leave the fucking class.

C) RULES FOR FEMINISM 101:

1. STOP TRYING TO ARGUE.

HERE'S WHY: If you are here to learn from other people about a subject you know nothing about, then your information is basically shit. It is fine to refute and question and all that, but you have to admit you know fucking nothing and stop trying to defend the stuff you think you know. This is not because you have to surrender your will and brain at the door, but because your defensive posturing is preventing you from even knowing what it is you disagree with.

HERE IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHY: I personally don't need or want everyone on the planet to agree with me. Of course on one level I -do- want everyone to agree with me. But I know a world with diverse opinions is more likely to come up with solutions. I value opposition, and I know I am not always right.

So the 'stop trying to argue' rule is not to prevent you from speaking your mind. It is to help you learn by short circuiting the knee-jerk reaction to fight that prevents you from absorbing new information. Imagine trying to teach a kid the ABCs if they interrupted constantly to shout that their extremist religious parents think the alphabet is of the devil. Is that kid going to learn anything from even the best teacher? No, because they won't shut up long enough to learn the alphabet song. Once they know the basics of the alphabet they can argue against it, but until then they don't know what they are talking about.


2. READ AND COMPREHEND.

People are not writing shit for no reason. If you are asking for information on the internet, someone, somewhere will give you information. If you don't read it, then you are wasting their time. I don't think you are actually reading this now, in fact. If you are reading this, write, "I'm sorry for misgendering you, great grumpus." And the follow that up with, "I like cheetos in the morning." So as you can see it is important to actually read and understand. And if you haven't read it, announce that it was too long or whatever the problem was.

3. IF YOU ARE HAVING A SHITTY DAY, TAKE A BREAK.

Everyone has shitty days, but if you have an excuse every time you come to an argument for why your behavior is so poor, no one has any reason to believe you or care. If that is how you always behave, then everyone will see you as an asshole.

It is okay to be angry, but if your anger makes it impossible for you to have a conversation about a subject you don't like, then why are you trying to have it? Go garden or something, as that will be more productive.

4. DON'T EVER FUCKING MISGENDER ME OR IMPLY/STATE BOLDLY THAT I PERSONALLY AM THE REASON YOU HATE FEMINISM OR THAT YOU AREN'T LEARNING - ESPECIALLY AFTER YOU HAVE TRIED TO SAY YOU ARE A FEMINIST OR THAT YOU AGREE WITH FEMINISM.

Remember when you said you wanted to be a gender warrior? You actually said that. Why the fuck did you say that?

At any rate, you have a crap memory. I have a crap memory too, did you know that? Mine may not be as bad as yours, but it is bad enough to cause me trouble, so I sympathize. One thing you have to know is that other people do have functioning memories, and since this is the internet they can look back and see what you've said.

The greatest tip I can give you for this problem is don't be a liar - because poor memories and lies are a terrible combination. You've been an asshat. Own that. Now more forward and be truthful. Be a credit to that god you care about.


D) WHAT IF YOU DON'T AGREE?

This is a free course and no one is going to make you take it. But you've asked repeatedly, so the course is on offer for you. If at any time you decide this course is not for you or that you simply don't want to take it any more, you can stop. It'd be helpful if you would announce that, but no need to do that either.



Now if you have read my syllabus, type, "I, Rothide, hereby agree to enter this Feminism 101 course of my own free will."
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Here, Rothide, this is what you should have done some time ago:

"Ok, I've spent a while thinking about the discussion and managed to notice what the problem was.

I'm sorry. While I had walked in with the intent to have a polite conversation, I was too focused on my own ideas and am afraid didn't notice or took in account some of the posts of my 'opposers.'

From the point where I was pointed that out and forward... Yeah, I'm afraid that it was a downward spiral of me getting angry and more and more posts getting me angry until we reached here. I guess that the wiser alternative would be to leave the thread now before it gets worse.

I know that I still have lots to learn and would really want to have more of these conversations, so I hope that you can forgive my past, absolutely unintended attitudes, and are willing to give me another chance to chat in the future."

This is how you apologize and sound sincere in the process. I made up some details, but I'm sure that with this model and carefully explaining what you felt during this ordeal, you can manage to post without stripeypants telling you the rules or most of the forum mocking you.

Nobody has a problem with you as a person. But we want you to realize that you have a problem in your speech and how you handle other people, and it's not doing you or the forum any favours.


That is an excellent apology. I like it.

And it isn't for the sake of bloodlust an apology is necessary. It is necessary to demonstrate that things are indeed different - that we can all move on. Forgiveness is beautiful. I love forgiveness a lot more than fighting - especially when I've been a jerk.

Seriously, Rothide, I would be delighted to forgive you. I am disappointed because you promised you'd do better, but instead you're being a pain and lashing out at people who have been very decent to you. I'd love to see you succeed.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
That is an excellent apology. I like it.

Practice makes the master. I tend to say inappropriate things when I get out of my comfort zone so knowing how to apologize gets me going.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the hardest part is getting started. Sometimes I try to apologize when not necessary just to make it easier. But like most humans, there are times when I really, really, really don't want to apologize and I avoid it. But I'm getting better at that.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I find the hardest part is getting started. Sometimes I try to apologize when not necessary just to make it easier. But like most humans, there are times when I really, really, really don't want to apologize and I avoid it. But I'm getting better at that.

Swallowing your pride is a hard task. Really, one has to be good at detecting the point in which they have screwed up and try to reverse it.

And if you can't detect it well... Yeah the apology has to be a good one.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's where an ability to judge the fairness of people around you is an asset. If the generally reasonable person you respect is telling you that you screwed up, and you usually agree when this person says someone has screwed up, it's likely they are correctly assessing things. If the person flies off the handle unreasonably on a regular basis, then you should still consider whether you are wrong, but you'll do it knowing they are more likely to be wrong.

Sometimes it is just good to apologize even if you know you didn't do anything wrong. The apology doesn't have to be a lie, but you can still cede something. Like, "I'm sorry for raising my voice," or "I'm sorry we both have to deal with this really hard issue."

I think something that is more fun is sharing something that makes both parties vulnerable. Like when someone talks about being mad, it can be great to say you get mad too, and then share something that makes you unreasonably mad but you can't do anything about it. That helps to set people at ease, and helps to bring people closer.

And sometimes the only thing that can be done is to avoid angry-making topics. I find that's a good solution for work environments with diverse political opinions - especially during elections.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just starting with some sincere sympathy for the people on the other side is a good step in the right direction.
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I might secretly be canadian or something because I'm so free with my apologies (completely sincere ones, mind you) that I usually end up pissing people off and get yelled at to "just stop fucking apologizing so much" to which, without thinking, I invariably automatically reply with a sincere "sorry".
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
And its like, so I got a semi-good job. Did I get it because I was the best choice or was it just this patriarchy made me get it. Am I really qualified to do anything that was given to me. Basically this patriarchy stuff makes it seem like Im just around for nothing. Yeah I can do my job well but just because Im male I get it. Do you know how much it sucks to seem to be just to be told "you didn't really do that, your fucking gender caused it to happen".


yes, actually, we do. every minority has probably wondered at some point "did i get that job because of my qualifications, or because they wanted to fill a quota?" every woman has probably wondered "did they make their decision based on my resume, or on whether or not they think i look hot?"

and yes, now you have to wonder "did i get where i am from my own hard work, or because i am a white male and people just made assumptions about me, or about the woman/hispanic/disabled person who also interviewed for my job?"

yes, we understand that you feel bad thinking that. we all feel bad when we think that people made decisions about us based on some stereotype.

but see, refusing to understand that people _do_ make decisions based on stereotypes doesn't change what is actually happening. it may make you feel better, at least for the moment - but it doesn't help you deal with reality. you are like the grasshopper who sings and plays and doesn't prepare for winter, because he doesn't believe winter will ever come. but it will come. that's what you have to understand. it will come, whether you are prepared or not. how well you survive it, however, will depend on whether you accept the reality that it will come.

what you are failing to realize is that feminism's end goal is not to endlessly grind your face into the fact that you are privileged. it's to break down the privileges, so that _all_ of us, of whatever gender or race or religion or whatever, will be rated for our own personal abilities, not someone's stereotype of our abilities. then _none_ of us will need to think we got the job because of some unrelated thing.
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