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2013-05-25: Hand And Penis
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Vishaing



Joined: 27 Jun 2012
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Rune: Correct!

@Leohan: I'm assuming you aren't handling it well because you've displayed breathtaking ignorance as to the previous history of the Trope. Furthermore what you have described of how you decided to use the idea of Virginity being needed at all suggests that you just chucked it in there because because because.

As Rune said, Hocus Pocus at least took the trope in a direction it is not often taken in. All you are doing is rehashing a Trope that has been beaten to death so it can be windowdressing.

Plus, as someone who has put in the time to figure out the mechanics of my own Magic System, your Laziness makes me angry.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 965

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune: The very first posts after I explained my reasons for the question were fundamentally that. And no, I don't resist criticism. I resist people telling me that I musn't do X or Y because no one should do X or Y.

Vishaing: From the very beginning I mantained that the virginity was naught but a component for rituals. Also I'm taking stuff from the history of occultism, not going "LOL this needs a virgin to work." Also other than this quite irrelevant detail you don't know what the magic system is about. You are just being judgemental without bases.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1025

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Rune: The very first posts after I explained my reasons for the question were fundamentally that. And no, I don't resist criticism. I resist people telling me that I musn't do X or Y because no one should do X or Y.

Vishaing: From the very beginning I mantained that the virginity was naught but a component for rituals. Also I'm taking stuff from the history of occultism, not going "LOL this needs a virgin to work." Also other than this quite irrelevant detail you don't know what the magic system is about. You are just being judgemental without bases.


IF IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THE SYSTEM AND THE STORY, AND IT HURTS PEOPLE, DON'T DO IT. IF YOU STILL DO IT EVEN THOUGH IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THE SYSTEM AND THE STORY AND IT HURTS PEOPLE, THEN YOU ARE A DOUCHE WHO IS HURTING PEOPLE FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Is that clear enough yet?

And, separately, who -cares- if the virgin is, herself, magical, or is just a commodity or component to be used in a magical ritual? The kid in Hocus Pocus wasn't magical. It does not matter to the trope where the magic comes from, only that virginity is an important component of it.

In making it inconvenient enough to not be one, herself, that your character makes decisions based on her desire to remain a virgin for her magic, you have made it important, both to the system and to the story. Your character cares about it and makes choices because of it that affect both her magic and her relationships. By your own description, that is part of the story.

And you did say sex before, even if you're saying it's not now. You've kind of been going back and forth around the whole what-counts question, I get that. But you did say that she didn't enjoy the sex.
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9702
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
From the very beginning I mantained that the virginity was naught but a component for rituals.

Quote:
Also I'm taking stuff from the history of occultism, not going "LOL this needs a virgin to work."

These two things are the same when you write them into a story. Your good intentions/thoughts/whatever are not shown when you use a virgin sacrifice as a component.
Quote:
Also other than this quite irrelevant detail you don't know what the magic system is about. You are just being judgemental without bases.

Basis. Bases are for baseball.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 4543
Location: No.

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stop using the word sacrifice, he never said anything about sacrifice
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune: Where did I say that she didn't enjoy sex? I just said that she didn't care all that much about it, and that's why it was no big deal.

Also you seem to be saying that it NEEDS to hurt people. It doesn't. And honestly, yes, I could have ignored it, but this conversation has shown me that it's a subject worth exploring. Something being inconsequential doesn't mean irrelevant. It can tell a lot about a person if she has such priorities.


Lasairfiona: I really want to know where you got the 'sacrifice' word.

Because it wasn't from me.

Also, sorry, non-native speaker.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're the one who said just said "irrelevant," like two posts ago. If it's an irrelevant detail, just change the freaking detail.

And maybe I misread about the liking it. I do make mistakes on occasion. But how does it being sex vs near-sex change the fact that it's a lesbian encounter? (And all the tricky issues previously discussed about what does and doesn't count. There are enough problems with people thinking that lesbian sex isn't "real" sex to write a separate book on.)

You're using two different arguments to defend yourself, and are just switching back and forth between them rather than facing them.

Either it's inconsequential and doesn't matter (in which case don't do it, see the allcaps rant,) or it matters and is worth exploring, (in which case, are you really sure that you can do it well and not just add to the sea of dross?)
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, didn't mean irrelevant (dunno what post you mean, though.) I just mean that the story works without it, yet I guess that it's an interesting element at least worth commenting on.

Rune wrote:
But how does it being sex vs near-sex change the fact that it's a lesbian encounter? (And all the tricky issues previously discussed about what does and doesn't count. There are enough problems with people thinking that lesbian sex isn't "real" sex to write a separate book on.)

Well, if the character actually cares to stop before the sex it sure as hell does mean that it matters! If the other character was male it'd all remain intact.

Rune wrote:
Either it's inconsequential and doesn't matter (in which case don't do it, see the allcaps rant,) or it matters and is worth exploring, (in which case, are you really sure that you can do it well and not just add to the sea of dross?)

Third option: It's inconsequential to the main plot, but interesting enough to give it a little exploration.
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Last edited by Leohan on Tue May 28, 2013 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5900
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Third option: It's inconsequential to the main plot, but interesting enough to give it a little exploration.


in which case you are open to both objections
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I found where you got the irrelevant from!

Yeah, I meant that it doesn't define the system at all. Still, it can do for some nice characterization elements.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Irrelevant" and "inconsequential" are synonyms anyway, so I don't know what you think the distinction is. Whatever, though, if it's not important, if it's not in there for a good reason, then there's no good reason for it to be there, and you could easily change it.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took irrelevant as 'not important and unnecesary' and inconsequential as 'the plot remains there even without that element.'


I'm insisting on using this subject matter because I, myself, have gotten to find it appealing to explore. And it's also plain interesting, and it can make the character grow in value.

Details, attitudes, thoughts and concepts are all parts of a story, even if they can be not required at times. For example, the are entire chapters of Don Quixote (lots of them) that can be removed and keep the story coherent, but they add to the characters and setting so they are better off there.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not every flavor choice is a good one. And we're telling you that you're proving to have a very heavy hand with a rather stinky horseradish, and wondering if you even know how to season with horseradish in the first place.

Just because stories have flavor and setting and characterization and padding that isn't all strictly plot-related and still adds to the story, doesn't mean that everything you put in that isn't plot related is good just for being there. You still have to have a clue what you're doing.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 965

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
What I really stand for is the opposite of "Write what you know." Meaning, of course, "Know what you write." First decide what you want to do, and then research it a lot until you know that you can do it well.

Wink


I just don't know what led to the idea that I'd be indiscreet or insensitive about this. As I said, if I didn't care about proper representation I wouldn't have asked here and thus saved myself a lot of innecesary discussion.

Really, I don't trust myself to always deal well with very complex topics (2 out of my 2 attempts to depict or deal with the issue of rape have failed) but I do trust myself to do my best in the attempt, and I'm confident in this particular instance that I can do it sensibly.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Leohan wrote:
What I really stand for is the opposite of "Write what you know." Meaning, of course, "Know what you write." First decide what you want to do, and then research it a lot until you know that you can do it well.

Wink


I just don't know what led to the idea that I'd be indiscreet or insensitive about this. As I said, if I didn't care about proper representation I wouldn't have asked here and thus saved myself a lot of innecesary discussion.

Really, I don't trust myself to always deal well with very complex topics (2 out of my 2 attempts to depict or deal with the issue of rape have failed) but I do trust myself to do my best in the attempt, and I'm confident in this particular instance that I can do it sensibly.


Just do be careful. And don't be surprised if you still get corrected and called out when you say things that indicate stinky-horseradish thinking on the matter.
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