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2013-06-02 Post Traumatic Stress
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why? Because of how she looks?

NO, YOU FUCKING ...

...

yeah, I was right, fuck this, I'm outta here
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6078
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

in this thread Lich Mong plays the "racial essentialist" card in all its creepy, horrifying glory
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Lich Mong



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Species" not "racial."

I'm a speciesist, not a racists. Kinda a big difference.

I eat cow, not Germans.
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lich Mong wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
anyway everything about her is very human.
Why? Because of how she looks? I'm not concerned with how she looks; I am concerned with what she is.

Maybe instead, focus on how she BEHAVES. Actions speak louder than words, as I'm sure you're aware.
Besides, there's no way for any of us to know "what she is." Only Tatsuya knows for an immutable fact "what" Fuchsia is.
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almost a shame to waste dennis' talent on him.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lich Mong wrote:
Geareye wrote:
And who/what is it that defines one's "telos"?
Depends on what you believe in. I'm a big fan of Causes of flourishing myself. Others pick the classics, like a Creator.
Heretical Rants wrote:
Is Lich Mong really still going on about that crap?
Since it's where I define my morals from, yes.
Sorry you think my sense of right and wrong is "crap."


Yep, I do too. Because MY sense of Right and Wrong comes from Weatherwax.

“There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment about the nature of sin, for example.”

“And what do they think? Against it, are they?”

“It’s not as simple as that. It’s not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of gray.”

“Nope.”

“Pardon?”

“There’s no grays, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”

“It’s a lot more complicated than that—”

“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they are getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”

“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes—”

“But they starts with thinking about people as things . . .”
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Lich Mong



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:

Maybe instead, focus on how she BEHAVES. Actions speak louder than words, as I'm sure you're aware.
I don't know any humans that randomly fly into a rage and shoot fire out of their hands, do you? I feel like the whole point of many of these strips are to demonstrate her NOT acting human.
MerchManDan wrote:
Besides, there's no way for any of us to know "what she is." Only Tatsuya knows for an immutable fact "what" Fuchsia is.
Fair point.
I'd feel better about the whole thing if she started to physically change into a nondemon, however.
Felgraf wrote:
Yep, I do too. Because MY sense of Right and Wrong comes from Weatherwax.
Oh, well I'm more into evolutionary ethics myself.
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Tekii



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

She's not randomly flying into a rage.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6078
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

in this thread Lich Mong thinks he's being a "speciesist" when what he's actually doing is closer to being a "racist"

also in this thread Lich Mong makes category mistakes

also also in this thread Lich Mong dramatically and quite possibly deliberately misinterprets Sinfest comics

this is such a rich and lively thread. one might even call it high quality!
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get my morality from Dove candy and Halls cough drop wrappers. I haven't had either in years, so I've stopped maturing, but it's okay. All you need is love, and a little chocolate doesn't hurt. Your smile is your best accessory! Tough is your middle name! Turn "can do" into "can did!"
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lich Mong wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:

Maybe instead, focus on how she BEHAVES. Actions speak louder than words, as I'm sure you're aware.
I don't know any humans that randomly fly into a rage and shoot fire out of their hands, do you? I feel like the whole point of many of these strips are to demonstrate her NOT acting human.
MerchManDan wrote:
Besides, there's no way for any of us to know "what she is." Only Tatsuya knows for an immutable fact "what" Fuchsia is.
Fair point.
I'd feel better about the whole thing if she started to physically change into a nondemon, however.
Felgraf wrote:
Yep, I do too. Because MY sense of Right and Wrong comes from Weatherwax.
Oh, well I'm more into evolutionary ethics myself.


And does Evolutionary Ethics state that it is right for one person to divine what the 'purpose' of another should be, and attempt to force them into that role?
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"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every conversation with Lich Mong ends the same. He says something that sounds awful, gets the shit kicked out of him, then claims he meant something else and doesn't understand why everyone is kicking the shit out of him. Then spends multiple pages explaining why you should stop kicking the shit out of him in ways that makes you want to kick the shit out of him.
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Lich Mong



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point of my argument was that others were making category mistakes in anthropomorphizing a demon. Anthropomorphism being a classic example of a category mistake.

Felgraf wrote:
And does Evolutionary Ethics state that it is right for one person to divine what the 'purpose' of another should be, and attempt to force them into that role?
Who is doing that? I didn't make any claims about what the purpose of a demon is. I just was trying to make the point that it's not necessarily the same thing as human telos. Since--you know--humans and demons aren't the same thing.

Learn to climb the pyramid, people:

Her randomly flying into a rage isn't really the point; her shooting fire out of her hands is.

Dogen wrote:
Every conversation with Lich Mong ends the same. He says something that sounds awful, gets the shit kicked out of him, then claims he meant something else and doesn't understand why everyone is kicking the shit out of him. Then spends multiple pages explaining why you should stop kicking the shit out of him in ways that makes you want to kick the shit out of him.
Far be it for me to attempt clarifications. Rolling Eyes
If I'm moving any goal posts, then I'm not aware of it; can you back up your accusation? How is what I said different than what I'm saying?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah. See, because every conversation with you is the same, I already know how this one ends. You never understand what people say to you except in a superficial way. That's why everyone has to constantly explain everything to you - even how the things you say sound. It get old the third or fourth time we followed that script. I'm just here for the comic relief.

As Dove, the Great and Powerful, once said, "You make everything lovely!"
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Lich Mong



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Nah. See, because every conversation with you is the same, I already know how this one ends. You never understand what people say to you except in a superficial way. That's why everyone has to constantly explain everything to you - even how the things you say sound.
And here I thought the problem was that I needed to explain it to others, since I seem to be clarifying my own views to you a lot more than you are clarifying your views to me.

If you think I'm changing what I'm saying, why can't you just show it to me? Why do you need to make sarcastic comments instead? If I am doing what you are saying I'm doing than the evidence is in writing. It could be a teachable moment for me.
Dogen wrote:

It get old the third or fourth time we followed that script. I'm just here for the comic relief.
SadI'm sorry you feel that way about me.
Dogen wrote:

As Dove, the Great and Powerful, once said, "You make everything lovely!"
I love you too, Dogen.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1053

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are saying that it's possibly wrong for Fyoosh to try to escape what she has been made into, that her devil-girl purpose (read: fulfilling the controlling, dominating, harmful, soul-crushing, corrupting, lascivious desires of the devil as his minion) is primary and more important than her own hopes, dreams, feelings, thoughts, and desires.

It's the same argument used by asshats everywhere to rationalize keeping "others" in their place, in their "natural" roles. Slaves need to slave. Housewives need to housewife. 'Cause of skin and genitals and crap. Fyoosh isn't human because she can shoot fire from her hand? Women push babies out of their vayjays. Do all humans have that power?

Your ability to dismiss all that is so clearly human about her is disturbing on many, many levels.

What, exactly, about the story about her personhood vs her devil role filled you with the need to surmise that her designation as devil could be more important than her being as a person? To parse her down to that one element of her whole self and let it override the rest?

Because that is exactly what you implied in the beginning, and you have made that stance more and more explicit by your continuing argument. You have claimed that she is not human and put her in the same category as a cow in order to slither away from the accusation of falling into arguments that have historically supported racism.

You can quit the gaslighting and keep your pyramid. You have here said something reprehensible, and it is not wrong for people to be disgusted by it or call you out on it. You have put yourself in a loathsome company by your implication that a being can exhibit the mental and emotional hallmarks of humanity and still not be considered human, and thus have some other purpose prioritized above their humanity.

The big, fat point that you're missing is that no one actually cares what your particular assessment of what another sort of person's purpose actually is, but it's flat out wrong for you to be separating out people who don't fit your idea of a default normal person as being significantly something else in the first place.

You sneer at folks here for thinking that Fyoosh should act human even though she's not. Do you then reject that there is anything human about her at all? Because that would be fairly ridiculous and ignorant to do, considering all of the many, many human characteristics, feelings, and desires she exhibits.

People always have multiple things that define them, and those things are often in tension. You don't get to call into question their own prioritization of their own characteristics according to your own morality. Doing THAT is what makes you an ass-hat, because it's an ass-hat thing to do. Being willing to engage in speculation on those terms is an ass-hat thing to do. It is arrogant, presumptuous, fruitless in terms of actually coming to an understanding of another being, and is a point-of-view historically called upon to control, and rationalize the control, of others.

You should feel bad.
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