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2013-06-04: Something I Really Want
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a feeling God does not approve of Seymour's current behavior.

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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17398
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:

Therefor when I showed articles about how some women are doing acts that are "hatred" toward men. Rape, Murder, Battery. I argued that yes, Misandry is a thing. Misogyny and Misandry isn't about POWER, its about good old fashioned HATE.


yes, i remember this! one of the examples you gave was a guy being stabbed to death by his ex-girlfriend, and i asked you if she had done this because a) she hated this specific guy; b) she hated all men; or c) she was acting in accordance with a societal norm of hatred of men, institutionalized in the legal structures of the society.

and you didn't answer. but it's pretty critical to understanding the whole discussion.

because a) is not misandry (even though the object of her hatred happened to be a man).
b) is - but i don't think anyone made the claim that no one ever has hated all men.
and c) is misandry, but also about power - because someone had the power to make such hatred the societal norm. and that gives the hatred a lot more power, because it's not just one person hating, it's the whole society saying 'this hatred is normal'.

i believe our point was that you failed to demonstrate that individual acts of hatred reflected a societal norm with legal backing.
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Micius



Joined: 09 May 2013
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Misogyny and Misandry isn't about POWER, its about good old fashioned HATE.
... acting in accordance with a societal norm of hatred of men, institutionalized in the legal structures of the society.
I apologize for jumping into the conversation late. I believe that 'C' occurs though not in that particular case. Men are more likely to be convicted of crimes than females. This is in the sense that if a woman is on trial for the same crime as a man with the same caliber of evidence, she is less likely to be convicted than a male. The reasons for this are similar to why members of certain races are more likely to be convicted than members of other races; in that case racism, in this case sexism.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Therefor when I showed articles about how some women are doing acts that are "hatred" toward men. Rape, Murder, Battery. I argued that yes, Misandry is a thing. Misogyny and Misandry isn't about POWER, its about good old fashioned HATE.


yes, i remember this! one of the examples you gave was a guy being stabbed to death by his ex-girlfriend, and i asked you if she had done this because
a) she hated this specific guy;
b) she hated all men; or
c) she was acting in accordance with a societal norm of hatred of men, institutionalized in the legal structures of the society.

and you didn't answer. but it's pretty critical to understanding the whole discussion.

because
a) is not misandry (even though the object of her hatred happened to be a man).
b) is - but i don't think anyone made the claim that no one ever has hated all men.
and c) is misandry, but also about power - because someone had the power to make such hatred the societal norm. and that gives the hatred a lot more power, because it's not just one person hating, it's the whole society saying 'this hatred is normal'.

i believe our point was that you failed to demonstrate that individual acts of hatred reflected a societal norm with legal backing.


I tend to go with the generalization that most of these events occur because of a lack of empathy towards the opposite gender, due to the stereotypization of gender - meaning that we assume that the opposite gender works differently, thinks differently, reacts differently, and are thus an entity we cannot comprehend them ~ but there are these guidelines on how to get a girl to like you and how to interact with them, considering they are black boxes that will forever be unknown - and basically disregard the fact that everyone else around us is just as human as we are.

As I said, a way to remove the capability to think of them as their own person, and being able to see from their perspective. Because this way, you don't need to know the person, you just have to think of them as "another man" or "another woman".


...Wait a second, is this just plain sexism? It is, isn't it?
The problem with murder is that it's basically
A) an expression of hatred and physical violence
B) a disrespect of the law and societal norms
C) complete indifference towards the value of life the other person had.
It takes a complete psychopath to have all 3 points, but here we are.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17398
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Micius wrote:
mouse wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Misogyny and Misandry isn't about POWER, its about good old fashioned HATE.
... acting in accordance with a societal norm of hatred of men, institutionalized in the legal structures of the society.
I apologize for jumping into the conversation late. I believe that 'C' occurs though not in that particular case. Men are more likely to be convicted of crimes than females. This is in the sense that if a woman is on trial for the same crime as a man with the same caliber of evidence, she is less likely to be convicted than a male. The reasons for this are similar to why members of certain races are more likely to be convicted than members of other races; in that case racism, in this case sexism.


except that he was citing this particular case as proof that institutionalized misandry exists. the fact that one woman found one man so hateful that she had to stab him is not proof of institutionalized misandry - you understand that, right? that just because one woman hates one particular man, that doesn't mean that society as a whole fosters hatred towards and discrimination against men as a gender?

and i think you need to read your paper more carefully, a lot of the male/female difference you cite is driven by the very high odds of convictions and longer sentences for young black men vs. white women. they don't seem to have a model for gender within race, but if you look at tables 4 and 5, you can see that within gender, blacks are more likely to be convicted than whites of the same age, and table 6 shows that black women, in some cases, are more likely to be convicted than white men. so it looks like what we are seeing is white privilege more than female privilege.

and while undoubtedly the difference in sentencing is based on sexism - did you pay attention to the gender-based reasons the authors suggested?

Quote:

3. Women and older offenders were defined as less dangerous and lesser risks to community safety compared to younger black males. Also, the blameworthiness of women and older offenders was more often mitigated by prospects of being victimized themselves-by coercion at the hands of men (for women), drug/alcohol problems, or psychological disorders.
4. Women and older offenders were also seen as potentially presenting greater costs and problems for the correctional system to bear in terms of health care and child welfare.
5. Women and older offenders were seen as having more ties to the community, more likely to be supporting a family, and more likely to have a steady job now or in the future. Young black males were seen as lacking such social bonds that were thought to insulate individuals from future criminal involvement. Consistent with Daly’s conclusion from her New Haven study (1994:230), indicators of stability and conventionality such as employment or care of others were likely to favor female defendants and least likely to favor young black male defendants.


so: women are less likely to be convicted or given heavy sentences because people think they are often the victims themselves, they are basically weak and harmless (even sickly), they are caregivers - and of course, they could end up getting pregnant, and they we have to deal with that. do you see where this is not exactly a case of women being favored because they have power in the system?
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