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2013-06-09: Toyland
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crayven



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
crayven wrote:
If there's one thing is this STRIP that's sexist assuming so much with knowing so little.

I'm very interested in learning how you came to the conclusion that this strip is sexist. Because HOLY SHIT WOW, the mental gymnastics are beyond my imagining.


Is it sexist to be talking about sexism?

It is sexist to assume all boys will go for 'exploder" toys and all girls will go for "pinky" toys. just because there are sections of toys with different styles doesn't mean they are 'girls only and boys only" as this strip implies.
Go ahead check the stores if you have children and see which one your child goes for.

My son isn't going for violent toys but for the more interactive ones.
legos or RC toys ( like his dad ). And it wasn't some evul conspiracy or patriarchy at work.
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jrdelirio



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 23
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly, when the goggles are switched on/off, the "girl" toys become revealed as concealing a scenario of something else; the "boy" toys though do still look much the same -- the message for the boys can be more overt.

Otoh wrote:
fake account wrote:
Otoh wrote:
Tekii wrote:
Just noticed the pole dance one wasn't even when she was wearing the goggles. What kind of toy stores is Tat going to?

Stores like Tesco, Britain's number one chain, Asda, Next & BHS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412195/Tesco-condemned-selling-pole-dancing-toy.html

"suitable for participants of 11 years old and upwards."


I'm amused that you would link to the Daily Mail[...]


Yep, I'm well aware of how hypocritical the DM & similar newspapers are which is why I didn't quote anything from their 'Oh, isn't it shocking, it must be banned piece' The quotes in my post came from Tesco's marketing for their product.

Yeah, really, don't shoot the messenger. "Respectable" papers probably would hesitate to publish such a note and post the quotes and pics -- so happens it still WAS true.


However, just so we can despair, here's another report of sexually-loaded kids' products: http://www.cracked.com/article_19288_8-weirdly-sexual-products-you-wont-believe-are-kids.html


Last edited by jrdelirio on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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winterflame



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My son is 2 and a half. His favourite toys are, in no order, his big playschool bus, the bar with the doors that open and close, a big bouncy pony that was supposed to be his sisters, and the baby doll he picked out for his last birthday. Oh and most of all, his favourite thing ever. His toy vacuum. He will try to vaccuum his room for HOURS if he can. His favourite colours are pink and yellow.

My daughter is turning 4 in a two weeks. She loves pink, and red. She loves her toddler size ATV, phones (because she likes to pretend she is the receptionist from Ghostbusters), ANYTHING Scooby Doo, and her sword and pirate gear. She likes sparkly pink dresses, and hiking boots. And picking flowers on the way to climb that tree right there.

I do not treat my kids any different from gender to gender and neither does their dad. So if my son grows up wanting to bake, and sew, and clean, and raise babies, he has all our support. If he wants to hunt (unlikely considering how he is with animals) and drive big trucks, and whatever, he has our support. And the exact same goes for our girl. So long as they are happy and not hurting anyone that is all that should matter.

But that stripper pole thing for kids... girl or boy that is just screwed up.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flavius Maximus wrote:
I just don't remember the stripper pole as a girls toy


Maybe this is a recent development


If you consider 2006 recent.

On a related note, I think boys' toys are pretty unfair, too. We're assuming that all little boys want to do is build and destroy things. Kids (male and female alike) are more complex than that. Boys can play Daddy and girls can build toy car race tracks.

You notice how men are generally more likely to be serial killers/rapists/soldiers/etc.? I don't know if taking the "conquer and destroy" element out of toys would help, but couldn't it be worth a shot?
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winterflame



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:


You notice how men are generally more likely to be serial killers/rapists/soldiers/etc.? I don't know if taking the "conquer and destroy" element out of toys would help, but couldn't it be worth a shot?


I wonder how much of that is because people bully the emotions out of boys. Boys must be tough, They can't show emotion. If they cry they're sissys. Hugging is for girls. My fiance and I are trying to make sure our boy knows he can have emotions. That there isn't anything shameful about being hurt, about being scared. And the people who are cruel about it are the ones in the wrong not him.
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Valerie



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

winterflame wrote:
Valerie wrote:


You notice how men are generally more likely to be serial killers/rapists/soldiers/etc.? I don't know if taking the "conquer and destroy" element out of toys would help, but couldn't it be worth a shot?


I wonder how much of that is because people bully the emotions out of boys. Boys must be tough, They can't show emotion. If they cry they're sissys. Hugging is for girls. My fiance and I are trying to make sure our boy knows he can have emotions. That there isn't anything shameful about being hurt, about being scared. And the people who are cruel about it are the ones in the wrong not him.


Yes yes yes can I marry you, too?

As much as the world is awful to girls, it's also awful to boys. I think the problem is that people think feminists only care about the female side of things, but we care about the male side, too. Women can wear pants, why can't men wear skirts?

And it boils down to the idea that women are inferior. Boys are being pigeon-holed into these masculine roles because they're told that being feminine is bad. Meanwhile, girls are encouraged to be feminine, but it's pretty rare that someone will take a football away from a girl who wants to play, even when that same person will take away a doll from a boy.

My cousins are a wonderful example of this in action. One is a girl, the other is a boy. (Well, they're actually young adults now.) As teenagers, the girl loved first-person shooter games, her favorite color was (and still is) a dark shade of green, and all of her friends were boys. THIS WAS FINE. Her parents did not bother her about any of it. Her brother, however, liked (and still likes) cutesy anime shows, My Little Pony, stuffed animals, etc., and his parents would never leave him alone about it.

The most messed up part of this is that parents will use the excuse that if their kid isn't "normal," someone might be mean to them, and God forid that happens, so the parents be mean first to try and keep the kid from being happy in the first place.

I'm glad that you and your fiance are trying to raise your boy to be human instead of... whatever it is most people want their boys to be.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Flavius Maximus wrote:
I just don't remember the stripper pole as a girls toy


Maybe this is a recent development


If you consider 2006 recent.

On a related note, I think boys' toys are pretty unfair, too. We're assuming that all little boys want to do is build and destroy things. Kids (male and female alike) are more complex than that. Boys can play Daddy and girls can build toy car race tracks.

You notice how men are generally more likely to be serial killers/rapists/soldiers/etc.? I don't know if taking the "conquer and destroy" element out of toys would help, but couldn't it be worth a shot?

It's needs a visual complete with instructional DVD and play money:

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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

winterflame wrote:
Valerie wrote:


You notice how men are generally more likely to be serial killers/rapists/soldiers/etc.? I don't know if taking the "conquer and destroy" element out of toys would help, but couldn't it be worth a shot?


I wonder how much of that is because people bully the emotions out of boys. Boys must be tough, They can't show emotion. If they cry they're sissys. Hugging is for girls. My fiance and I are trying to make sure our boy knows he can have emotions. That there isn't anything shameful about being hurt, about being scared. And the people who are cruel about it are the ones in the wrong not him.

I would posit that this part here goes way beyond the scope of feminism. The suppression, disregard, and outright rejection of emotions is something I wanna say is prevalent in damn near every culture on earth. In short, people in states where they appear to be showing strong emotions (acting emotional) are often, if not always, viewed as being less in control of their mental facilities. This entered the scope of feminism when people started associating 'emotional states' with being an intrinsic quality of being a female. Which is of course silly (yet has had dire consequences), since experiencing 'emotional states' is an intrinsic value of being human.

In short, I would posit that the we could measure how advanced a society or culture truly is by the degree to which they are allowed to completely, freely, and openly express and deal with their emotional states. I don't consider repression a form of 'dealing with emotions', but that seems to be the norm in most of the world, to one degree or another; repression is just ignoring something, it's not actually dealing with it.

BTW- I'm not saying we don't need to control our emotions, I'm saying we need to learn to deal with them.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the most awesome pissed off child, talking about gendered marketing while standing in a toy aisle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CU040Hqbas&sns=em


It is so fucking hilarious to me that anyone can argue, "Hey, it's not like anyone is affected by marketing!" As if advertisers and product makers don't spend hordes of money researching exactly how to reach into the human brain and turn on those lizardy buttons that scream "BUY BUY BUY BUY THIS THING OMG YOU WANT IT."

Let's dissect a tiny Stripeypants' brain.

When I was growing up, I thought clearly all women had to become housewives, and that when a man spent time with a woman they were going to try and rape her. I was blase about the rape part, and I assumed it was just how people interacted. My parents never overtly said this stuff to me, and probably if they knew, they might have at least set the rape part straight. (If for no other reason than they wanted to raise a heterosexual christian woman for marriage.)

So no one sat me down to say this to me. Where did I get it? Could have been from films, because if the villain isn't outright trying to rape a woman character, he's being skeevy - and the heros are all trying to get in her pants as well, so it can't be good versus that bad that makes that happen. Must be gender, since that's the consistent factor - not whether a character is good or bad.

I noticed this thing sometime when I was older than 12, watching Robin Hood: Men in Tights. That film was a parody, very explicitly reveling in the ridiculous. And the interactions with Maid Marion there were totally all about sex. I was able to deconstruct that and apply what I learned to other things - like stories, films and video games where the hero saves the woman. Which is so much of both child and adult media. I realized that these things were at least on the same spectrum.


Now for the second, my mother worked for a living. She was, in fact, part of the first wave of women joining the marines in the 1970s as actual marines and not auxilliary. The kids kept the house when we got old enough. So in my personal family life, there was no example for me of a housewife homemaker who never gets a job. My mother was religious and believed a lot of gendered crap, but in this regard she knew better.

My grandmother worked too, as did my other relatives. My grandmother was some kind of court clerk or judge (I can't be sure, no one properly explained it.) My other female relatives were former or active military as well, and only one was a housewife. She was nutty, insisting leaving dishes in the sink for an hour meant the house was filthy, and she'd spend days preparing one cake. She was the odd one, and I recall not liking her at all.

So where did that come from? I can't pinpoint an exact source. It was cumulative. I recall surprise sometimes if I said sexist things (Like when I told my brother boys can't be cooks.) because they didn't think that was what they were teaching me. But the books, films, toys, etc they gave to me actually told me a different story. The thing they subconsciously believed leaked out over all the things they passed on.

By the time I was a teen I could see more of it, and it was with such wry amusement I noted my mother watching religious shows about being a submissive woman while yelling at and cowing her husband.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding gendered colors, I worked at a fabric store where that was rife. Parents were bad about it, but relatives and friends were worse - out of fear of offending parents.

One grandmother fretted over a bug-covered purple fleece that looked masculine enough for a boy, but could be good for a girl. She said the mother would have a fit about purple, but the boy liked bugs and that was our only suitable bug fleece.

A lot of people made flannel blankets or newborns, or nursery room gear. I could tell who didn't know the expected gender of a child. They were the ones buying yellow fabric - nearly always with animals. Tons of giraffes. And that makes me laugh a bit, for a few reasons. Picture the poor parents of a newborn looking at a pee-colored room every time they check on their child. A sea of yellow and some giraffes are all we ave for the genderless.

It also amuses me because so any of my toys and those I wanted were animals. Animals are genderless, so long as they aren't cats or dogs.


Best part of the job was Halloween, helping the kids who were inventing costumes from scratch. One wanted to be someone who had smashed their head into a beehive. Another wanted to be a freeway. And thy had such creative ideas for it! It was good to see young costumers stretching their imaginations outside the proscribed costume set.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moor wrote:
Hydra wrote:
Unfortunately, there is research to back this up.

Boys simply prefer objects which move, like toy cars, or which are capable of mock violence; while girls prefer role playing, particularly social role playing.
Now does that role playing have to be the role playing of traditional gender roles? No. But girls still prefer toys which are used as props for their imagination, while boys use the toy as the primary focus of play. That's just how it is.


With all respect to Heretical Rants' wonderfully concise counter-argument, I'd like to offer a slightly longer one.

Because yes, there have been studies that show girls tend to prefer "girly" things and boy, "boy-y" things. There have also been studies that show that that only happens, incidentally, when said children see the observer. It's a form a conformation bias -- the parents see the children cross-playing ('s like cross-dressing, just, you know, different), the parents get (subconsciously, but still visibly) upset, or even just slightly concerned, the children notice that, the children cross-play less.

Girls prefer social role play, because parents are more comfortable with girls preferring social role play. The only reason "that's how it is", is because people are more comfortable when children act "how it is", and children see that. It's like that, because it's like that -- specifically, because people like you think these things are built in, and specifically encourage kids to pick up on that and act in the stupid, gender-segregated ways you expect. In short, exactly Heretical Rants' counter-argument.

Also, I'd like to thank you for using the phrase "role play" -- I just imagined little toddler-aged boys running around shouting "bang!" at each other, while off to the side little toddler-aged girls sitting around among piles of D&D books.


I can even give a second-hand anecdote of this!

My fiance works at a day care, in what they call the "Waddler" room. (... Sort of between crawling and a toddler, where they're like "YAY I CAN SORT OF WALK" and look like penguins while doing so.)
They have dress up clothes for the kids to play with. One of the little boys put on a skirt. My fiance and the other woman running the room just react in a sort of "Oh dear god this is ADORABLE" fashion. They thought it was cute. They thought nothing more of it then, well, any of the other kids playing dress up (which does also elicit the same "OH DEAR GOD ADORABLE" reaction from my fiance and her co-worker)

The parent, though, came in and saw his boy in a skirt. And he flipped...
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winterflame



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Moor wrote:
Hydra wrote:
Unfortunately, there is research to back this up.

Boys simply prefer objects which move, like toy cars, or which are capable of mock violence; while girls prefer role playing, particularly social role playing.
Now does that role playing have to be the role playing of traditional gender roles? No. But girls still prefer toys which are used as props for their imagination, while boys use the toy as the primary focus of play. That's just how it is.


With all respect to Heretical Rants' wonderfully concise counter-argument, I'd like to offer a slightly longer one.

Because yes, there have been studies that show girls tend to prefer "girly" things and boy, "boy-y" things. There have also been studies that show that that only happens, incidentally, when said children see the observer. It's a form a conformation bias -- the parents see the children cross-playing ('s like cross-dressing, just, you know, different), the parents get (subconsciously, but still visibly) upset, or even just slightly concerned, the children notice that, the children cross-play less.

Girls prefer social role play, because parents are more comfortable with girls preferring social role play. The only reason "that's how it is", is because people are more comfortable when children act "how it is", and children see that. It's like that, because it's like that -- specifically, because people like you think these things are built in, and specifically encourage kids to pick up on that and act in the stupid, gender-segregated ways you expect. In short, exactly Heretical Rants' counter-argument.

Also, I'd like to thank you for using the phrase "role play" -- I just imagined little toddler-aged boys running around shouting "bang!" at each other, while off to the side little toddler-aged girls sitting around among piles of D&D books.


I can even give a second-hand anecdote of this!

My fiance works at a day care, in what they call the "Waddler" room. (... Sort of between crawling and a toddler, where they're like "YAY I CAN SORT OF WALK" and look like penguins while doing so.)
They have dress up clothes for the kids to play with. One of the little boys put on a skirt. My fiance and the other woman running the room just react in a sort of "Oh dear god this is ADORABLE" fashion. They thought it was cute. They thought nothing more of it then, well, any of the other kids playing dress up (which does also elicit the same "OH DEAR GOD ADORABLE" reaction from my fiance and her co-worker)

The parent, though, came in and saw his boy in a skirt. And he flipped...


LOL My fiance would react the same way if it was our boy. That or shake his head and go asking baby girl why she was using her little brother as a doll again.

I know this because one Christmas his uncle gave his kids a box of dress up clothes, it was a big family get together. He had at the time a 6 year old girl, an 8 year old boy, and a 10 year old boy. The oldest wanted nothing to do with it. The youngest boy however stole the pinkest dress and shoes and boa and hat he could find as well as all the clip on earrings. He told his sister she could be the fireman if she wanted to. "But the pumps are mine."

Most of teh family was HORRORFIED. Me, my fiance, one of the counsins (male) and the kids father all had varying levels of amused laughter and "Dear god that is so cute." My only advice when he asked how he looked was to suggest maybe he wear less earrings. They were pinching his ears.
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Mokurai



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vector010 wrote:
My daughter is a HUGE fan of Spiderman, The Hulk... Well, all of the Avengers really, but those are her favorites. Unfortunately, for her last birthday I couldn't find a single superhero card that didn't say something like "To the birthday BOY"... Argg..


1. Do you know that you can make your own cards?

2. Black Widow http://www.redbubble.com/people/melissa-smith/works/10219107-black-widow?country_code=US&p=greeting-card&utm_campaign=shopping&utm_medium=google_products&utm_source=google&gclid=COKGvYjJ17cCFZE-MgodhgcAWQ
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Ricia



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the best thing we can really do as parents, aunt and uncles, godparents, grandparents etc etc is buy the children in our lives whatever the hell they personally want. I mean within financial reason, of course. If my nephew wants a doll or a sparkly pink tea set, I'll get him one. If my niece wants a football and a set of toy cars, I'll get her them. If my niece wants the doll and my nephew the cars, that's cool too. A problem I've seen with people who fight against gender bias in toys (a cause I totally support) is they themselves are biased against giving children gender specific toys ever. I think we need to teach the children in our lives that all interests are valid. That it's okay to bake cookies, play football, dance ballet, climb trees and whatever else they want to do. Marketing affects them abosolutely but we should be the loudest voice.
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Mokurai



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Zero wrote:
OK, this is one that get the "assigned gender roles complaining" correct. Women= beautiful housewives in aprons. Men= Prince-Lords of action, change, bravery and intellect.


Thorstein Veblen pointed out over a century ago, in The Theory of the Leisure Class, that this is precisely backwards. Women and slaves (or serfs; later wage slaves) did the productive work of making or growing stuff and taking care of people (teachers and nurses), while being utterly at the whim of rich men, who got the glory of the "honorable" professions, "the exercise of prowess--force and fraud" (the military, sports, banking and other financial professions, politics, megachurch religion).

Exactly the inversion of Makers and Takers that Romney ran on in the 2012 election.
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