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2013-06-09: Toyland
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Catel



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 346
Location: France

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joandark wrote:
At least kids TV seems to be getting more feministic. From what I watch of it, anyways. Which is mostly ponies, so I'm probably biased, but... that's something at least. And that's in the toy isle too so... beacon of hope?

Sadly, Lauren Faust disagrees:

Quote:
Q: Actually, I'm curious. Are you finding that producers and the like are getting more open to major/lead female characters in animated material given the success of MLP, Littlest Pet Shop, and Legend of Korra?

A: Absolutely not. Despite it's popularity, MLP doesn't get great ratings--- not compared to bigger networks, anyway.

Quote:
Q: Do you feel that shows and toys directed at young girls have recently gotten better, worse, or not changed?

A: I think toys are getting worse and worse. I've seen some shows that at least seem to be trying. I don't see a lot that I like, unfortunately.

I bet she was referring to American Girls.
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 275

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hydra wrote:
Unfortunately, there is research to back this up.

Boys simply prefer objects which move, like toy cars, or which are capable of mock violence; while girls prefer role playing, particularly social role playing.
Now does that role playing have to be the role playing of traditional gender roles? No. But girls still prefer toys which are used as props for their imagination, while boys use the toy as the primary focus of play. That's just how it is.


With all respect to Heretical Rants' wonderfully concise counter-argument, I'd like to offer a slightly longer one.

Because yes, there have been studies that show girls tend to prefer "girly" things and boy, "boy-y" things. There have also been studies that show that that only happens, incidentally, when said children see the observer. It's a form a conformation bias -- the parents see the children cross-playing ('s like cross-dressing, just, you know, different), the parents get (subconsciously, but still visibly) upset, or even just slightly concerned, the children notice that, the children cross-play less.

Girls prefer social role play, because parents are more comfortable with girls preferring social role play. The only reason "that's how it is", is because people are more comfortable when children act "how it is", and children see that. It's like that, because it's like that -- specifically, because people like you think these things are built in, and specifically encourage kids to pick up on that and act in the stupid, gender-segregated ways you expect. In short, exactly Heretical Rants' counter-argument.

Also, I'd like to thank you for using the phrase "role play" -- I just imagined little toddler-aged boys running around shouting "bang!" at each other, while off to the side little toddler-aged girls sitting around among piles of D&D books.
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You chaps might consider posting links to these studies you mention.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1082
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fun fact: I still own an Easy-Bake oven which I received when I was like, six.

It was the BEST. CHRISTMAS. EVER.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1023

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I humbly leave this late-night offering for now:

http://www.duelinganalogs.com/infographic/how-to-tell-if-a-toy-is-for-boys-or-girls/
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 275

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, yeah.

I believe the main source I was thinking of was in Cinderella Ate My Daughter, but it's been a while so I could be misremembering.

However, one quick internet search later has turned up this, for one (I don't know how much that matches -- I can only see the intro). This one is related, too.

This study is more maybe-yes-maybe-no, and does give some evidence for the opposing viewpoint, but I'd like to point out the (in this case anecdotal, but nevertheless common) last paragraph.
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Maynar



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Location: Look into my eye...

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panel 4 FTW. Just the look on her face. Funneh.

All else is gravy.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree with the notion that girls and boys have affinities for certain toys from the very beginning. I do agree that it's heavily influenced by family and surroundings. Dividing toys by gender is horrible and all stores should cut it out.

edit: Also that's not 'how it is'. Fuck that shit. My sister loves playing with helicopters and I get them for her, no one gonna tell me she ought to play with dolls instead.
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 1840
Location: Somewhere else.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just point out that Hasbro will soon be producing Easy-bake Ovens for boys. Not exactly a huge leap towards gender neutrality, but still - a small step is better than a slide backwards.

Mr Zero wrote:
And our cookies aren't as good.
Speak for yourself. I've made some kick-ass cookies in my time, along with various breads, cakes & pizzas.
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Last edited by MerchManDan on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1082
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm rather confused as to why stuffed animals are considered toys for girls in the comic strip.

I kind of assumed that stuffed animals and teddy bears were unisex. I have a basket full of stuffed animals (although, then again, I also have an Easy-Bake oven, so...). I mean, I figured most kids have a teddy or a stuffed animal that they had as a child.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 282

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MANUAL THREAD MERGE TIME
Tekii wrote:
I never got an easy bake oven when I was a kid Sad

Istancow wrote:
I never got my stripper pole, either. And that was the end of my dream of being an exotic dancer.

Istancow wrote:
"Exotic dancer."
"Exotic."
I still do not understand that term in that context. Would not "erotic" be more appropriate?
Such quandary. Does pole-dancing have some connection to some civilization with a far different culture from modern Western civilization?
Here in the west, I do not know of anything pole-dancing is associated with other than strip clubs and hobbyists.

Tekii wrote:
Just noticed the pole dance one wasn't even when she was wearing the goggles. What kind of toy stores is Tat going to?

Smooshie wrote:
I like that the boys' section is implying that those are your only options as a male. Explore and oppress or you're not a man! Laughing

stripeypants wrote:
"Just noticed the pole dance one wasn't even when she was wearing the goggles. What kind of toy stores is Tat going to?"
The same one that sells this doll, surely.
http://packaginggirlhood.typepad.com/packaging_girlhood/2009/09/how-cute-a-pole-dancing-doll-for-your-little-one.html

aboutwhistles wrote:
I got my easy-bake oven, but it got taken away pretty fast when my parents realized that it was just an excuse for me to eat more sweets while claiming to be doing something practical.

Phox wrote:
What is wrong with care.. domestic and nurturing... by the flip side there is quite a bit wrong with action, adventure and exploration.

The binary code of man and women it exists because we have spent... no matter how one person or people are raised children will always be blank slates that will always mold them selves. You can only do so much to help a child become something unique and help them learn right from wrong become they become a teenager, everything before that is just laying road work and tracks for them. Oddly enough i support easy bake ovens and iron board type stuff though they should be modeling those to both boys and girls as i found out in high school how few of my friends actually knew how to cook. (Which made me VERY popular at pre parties as i could cook damn near anything.)

Still end of the day it isn't ever going to be the toys that your child plays with that are going to shape how they actually grow. It is going to be as it has always been since the dawn of time. Who plays with them, and Who teaches them as they play, and those Who who teach them why they play a certain way.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 282

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Zero wrote:
OK, this is one that get the "assigned gender roles complaining" correct. Women= beautiful housewives in aprons. Men= Prince-Lords of action, change, bravery and intellect.
It does seem a little one-sided as all the useful roles goes to the boys, but as a rule we don't look as good in thongs. And our cookies arn't as good.


I hope you do realize that cookie baking is something you can learn, so technically the "goodness" of your cookie just takes practice ~ which obviously makes cookie baking a gender-independent skill. And you might look good in thongs, it's just unusual.

Quote:
Because yes, there have been studies that show girls tend to prefer "girly" things and boy, "boy-y" things. There have also been studies that show that that only happens, incidentally, when said children see the observer. It's a form a conformation bias -- the parents see the children cross-playing ('s like cross-dressing, just, you know, different), the parents get (subconsciously, but still visibly) upset, or even just slightly concerned, the children notice that, the children cross-play less.

Girls prefer social role play, because parents are more comfortable with girls preferring social role play. The only reason "that's how it is", is because people are more comfortable when children act "how it is", and children see that. It's like that, because it's like that -- specifically, because people like you think these things are built in, and specifically encourage kids to pick up on that and act in the stupid, gender-segregated ways you expect. In short, exactly Heretical Rants' counter-argument.


Slow clap, "that's how it is" is NEVER a valid response, especially when it comes to behavior. This is just how they assume 'males are more likely to be aggressive', while it's all because the parents are more forgiving towards male children being aggressive and 'playfighting' than female children.

Phox wrote:
What is wrong with care.. domestic and nurturing... by the flip side there is quite a bit wrong with action, adventure and exploration.

The binary code of man and women it exists because we have spent... no matter how one person or people are raised children will always be blank slates that will always mold them selves. You can only do so much to help a child become something unique and help them learn right from wrong become they become a teenager, everything before that is just laying road work and tracks for them. Oddly enough i support easy bake ovens and iron board type stuff though they should be modeling those to both boys and girls as i found out in high school how few of my friends actually knew how to cook. (Which made me VERY popular at pre parties as i could cook damn near anything.)

Still end of the day it isn't ever going to be the toys that your child plays with that are going to shape how they actually grow. It is going to be as it has always been since the dawn of time. Who plays with them, and Who teaches them as they play, and those Who who teach them why they play a certain way.


I don't see what's wrong with adventure and exploration. And these terms are not the problem. It's that it is directed towards one gender or the other. Which practically assumes, "if you are a girl, you are obligated to play with dolls, because you are female".
You'd think this is completely normal, but I'm fairly certain there are female children out there who despise dolls, and their parents start worrying about how this is unusual. This shouldn't happen.
Not to mention, I'm not sure how playing with dolls helps in becoming something 'unique', when dolls are exactly what are pushed down the throats of children based on their reproductionary organ.

It's even worse when a boy actually likes dolls, though - although there are attempts to support tolerance towards such preferences and behavior.


Last edited by Zhuinden on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1082
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Zero wrote:
OK, this is one that get the "assigned gender roles complaining" correct. Women= beautiful housewives in aprons. Men= Prince-Lords of action, change, bravery and intellect.
It does seem a little one-sided as all the useful roles goes to the boys, but as a rule we don't look as good in thongs. And our cookies arn't as good.


I'll have you know my chocolate chip cookies are excellent.

Unisexcellent
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Zero wrote:
OK, this is one that get the "assigned gender roles complaining" correct. Women= beautiful housewives in aprons. Men= Prince-Lords of action, change, bravery and intellect.
It does seem a little one-sided as all the useful roles goes to the boys, but as a rule we don't look as good in thongs. And our cookies arn't as good.


Another vote for "Speak for yourself." My dad makes the best cookies. THE BEST.

He still mails me them on Christmas.

Also you just haven't been looking at the right men in thongs. Shall I find you some links? It is an onerous job but I would do this thing for you.
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
I disagree with the notion that girls and boys have affinities for certain toys from the very beginning. I do agree that it's heavily influenced by family and surroundings. Dividing toys by gender is horrible and all stores should cut it out.

edit: Also that's not 'how it is'. Fuck that shit. My sister loves playing with helicopters and I get them for her, no one gonna tell me she ought to play with dolls instead.


Seriously. People treat infants differently based on what gender they think the child is. "girls" get held more, spoken to more, "boys" get more play with objects/toys and more "action" playing like, swinging the baby.

It starts at infancy and relentlessly goes on for YEARS, and then on top of that you have the media influence that kids also soak up, that is very clear on what girls do and what boys do....

and people STILL will turn around and be like "well, uh, geee. My four year old daughter just naturally prefers pink and nurture-play" as if the child just emerged from a vacuum and hadn't been soaking in those messages her whole entire life.
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