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2013-06-13: Post-Patriarchal Society
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To who said "what would replace the patriarchy" i would have to say probably a classism, or comunistic society.

It wouldn't be about whoes equal, it would be who has things or jobs that make them unequal.

People could argue that if everyone's supposed to be equal, why do people have jobs that pay much more than mine? Everyone has the same ability to learn something, so his skill set isn't that much better than mine and could be easily be replaced or even overtaken by someone in 4 to 8 years, we should lower their paychecks to show that everyone actually are Equal.

This is of course a very bleak look at a future society, I've always been a "glass half empty" kind of person when dealing with the future.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zorlond wrote:
Xanthe wrote:
A post-patriarchal society where women are liberated from structural oppression.


Interesting. Notice how she didn't ask for an end to structural oppression in general. She just wants women to not be the target of it. Either she doesn't realize men suffer under their own kind of structured oppression, or she simply doesn't care.


Or she was simply answering the question Abby asked her at face value, offering a simple statement of what the goal of her own dedicated efforts are. She is stating the specific goal of her own efforts, not giving some fluffy Miss America Pageant "world peace" puff answer

Quote:
Also, she's focused on the end of 'the patriarchy' without offering any alternative to replace it.


Because that could so totes be laid out in clear and un-twistable (by devil or you) detail in a single strip's talk-bubble, and Xanthe is SO known for long-winded and wonkishly detailed soapbox speeches given to anyone who will sit still. (To clear up the sarcasm there, no. No, she's not like that at all. She is in fact characterized by to-the-point statements, and an economy of speech.)

Quote:
That's short-sighted and ignorant, since any loss of a societal structure will, sooner or later, be replaced by something else (or even replaced by exactly what was lost in the first place).


Assuming this assumes that a) Xanthe has no idea whatsoever what the power structures of Patriarchy actually are, b) Patriarchy is so completely tied up in other forms of modern power structure that no lateral shift can be made, which is being disproved in action and fact every day, c) eliminating Patriarchy would be a loss rather than achieving egalitarianism being a gain, and d) that the overthrow of Patriarchy would be some kind of grand coup that leaves a power vacuum, rather than the gradual and piecemeal evolution into increasing egalitarianism that has been going on without people like you really being aware of how and where it's working, for decades.

Your statement is full of huge mistakes and problems. One might even say short-sighted as to its implications.

Quote:
Is she implying a matriarchy as a replacement? Possibly, but without actual statement, there's no hint,


Except for the entire rest of her characterization, which has not at any point exhibited any inclination to dominate men whatsoever, and has very consistently, though her fanfics and her actions, expressed nothing but a desire for the dudebros and the entitled and violent men of the world to just leave women the hell alone, and respect their wishes as people. The entirety of her characterization is a pretty freaking big hint that she just means what she says here, and no more.

Quote:
and absolutely no limit to how the devil would twist the contract.


Assuming (again) she's actually interested in a contract and not just honestly answering Abby's question at face-value, the latter being the option that her whole MO supports.

Quote:
That's the real sign that Xanthe cannot carefully think out the results of her beliefs. Or at the very least cannot think of how the devil can, will, and does screw every contract up however the hell he likes.


Assuming she had any inclination whatsoever to do a deal with the devil. What is your proof for asserting that she was actually engaging in a completely out-of-character transaction, rather than just answering Abby's basic question with an honest in-character answer? How well have you thought out what you're reading into this interaction?, and how much of your own assumptions and negative connotations you're bringing into it outside of anything the comic itself has presented?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
This is of course a very bleak look at a future society, I've always been a "glass half empty" kind of person when dealing with the future.


Except when you're claiming that feminism has already won in the future so we don't have to worry about it anymore now. You do that. A lot.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
This is of course a very bleak look at a future society, I've always been a "glass half empty" kind of person when dealing with the future.


Except when you're claiming that feminism has already won in the future so we don't have to worry about it anymore now. You do that. A lot.


Just because I think feminism is winning, does mean I can't think that when it finally "succeeds" there won't be something bad coming in to take that "patriarchy" place.

Look at the Arab Spring, they were winning, they were hopeful for a democracy or better leadership, and put in that new leadership when they won. Now most just got new dictators.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
This is of course a very bleak look at a future society, I've always been a "glass half empty" kind of person when dealing with the future.


Except when you're claiming that feminism has already won in the future so we don't have to worry about it anymore now. You do that. A lot.


Just because I think feminism is winning, does mean I can't think that when it finally "succeeds" there won't be something bad coming in to take that "patriarchy" place.

Look at the Arab Spring, they were winning, they were hopeful for a democracy or better leadership, and put in that new leadership when they won. Now most just got new dictators.


Oh, right, you just don't think that feminism's success is a good thing.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
This is of course a very bleak look at a future society, I've always been a "glass half empty" kind of person when dealing with the future.


Except when you're claiming that feminism has already won in the future so we don't have to worry about it anymore now. You do that. A lot.


Just because I think feminism is winning, does mean I can't think that when it finally "succeeds" there won't be something bad coming in to take that "patriarchy" place.

Look at the Arab Spring, they were winning, they were hopeful for a democracy or better leadership, and put in that new leadership when they won. Now most just got new dictators.


Oh, right, you just don't think that feminism's success is a good thing.


No I think it's a good thing, I'm just prepared for something else to rise to power as well.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
No I think it's a good thing, I'm just prepared for something else to rise to power as well.


Then we're back to inconsistency.

You do not, in fact, take a consistantly "glass-half-full" view when dealing with feminism's goals and problems, instead opting for a dismissive, "you have no real problems because you've already won." approach.

I am calling you out on a blatant inconsistency here.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
No I think it's a good thing, I'm just prepared for something else to rise to power as well.


Then we're back to inconsistency.

You do not, in fact, take a consistantly "glass-half-full" view when dealing with feminism's goals and problems, instead opting for a dismissive, "you have no real problems because you've already won." approach.

I am calling you out on a blatant inconsistency here.


I'm not being inconsistent in that there seems to be a pattern to how things work in the world. People fight for things for good and just reasons, they succeed, a new problem you have to deal with rises up to take the old ones place.

From what I am getting from your responses, my belief that a problem coming after the defeat of the patriarchy, is something you disagree with. Am I correct?
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Rune



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are inconsistent in how you apply the thought process, and in the things that you use it in favor of and the things that you use it against. You make it a meaningless stance.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17311
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:

People could argue that if everyone's supposed to be equal, why do people have jobs that pay much more than mine?


because equality means equality under the law. it means everyone has equal rights, everyone gets equal protection, everyone gets equal justice. it means everyone with the same qualifications should have the same chance of getting admitted to the same university, of getting hired for the same job, of getting the same promotions. it doesn't mean that anyone, regardless of qualifications, can expect to get hired for any job, or that all salaries have to be the same.

because equality doesn't mean everyone will suddenly be the same, or even necessarily get the same rewards. for one thing, not everyone wants the same rewards. so equality doesn't say that a ditchdigger should get paid the same as a lawyer - it says that the pay of any ditchdigger or lawyer should be based on things relevant to the job (education, experience, track record) and not on the gender, race, religion or other non-relevant attributes of the job-holder.

why is this such a difficult concept?
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just going to stop and apologize for this line of thought then. I don't want an argument, and mouse pretty much gave a good argument against my idea.

Again sorry if I stepped on some neves, wasn't my intention.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you could say that communism can be a form of egalitarianism. It's just not the only one.
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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Night Spade wrote:
It's funny how that in a time period where we as a society are extra freaked out by the possibility that there are 'peds' under the beds, yet the fashion industry are pushing more and more sexy clothing to pre-teens... seriously... WTF!


I don't get how this product exploits women. They're only shoes. Are the working class not entitled to the sweat of their own brow?
http://www.pedshoes.com/

Oh, you meant the godless killing machines we mortals call bears.
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Mercian



Joined: 27 Feb 2013
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your thong panties for tweens, Abby, and raise you nipple tassle tops for 0-6 year-olds.

All you need now is the kiddy stripper pole. Classy.

They do have 'equal opps' babygro things, but I still feel sort of uncomfish about the tassles.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
To who said "what would replace the patriarchy"


The answer is far too obvious.
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