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Define "feminism" please
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Tim



Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Tim wrote:
Speaking of the girlfriends, this also reminds me of one of mine. An incredibly ambitious, independent and talented. At the age of 23 she was already a chief economist of a major aeronautics R&D company. Not a feminist, of course, but with a will and a lifestyle that would never bend to someone else's liking or comfort. And there is a woman, a well known internet freak in my national segment of the web: alcoholic, unemployed, and very, very radical feminist.

In conclusion, a very good indication of a viability of any political and social movement is the quality of its membership. If successful and prominent persons are its activists (and if the majority of them are) you can be sure that it has potential (will probably succeed). Otherwise, you may know it to be inconsequential sect.

I'm not sure what your point is. You knew a radfem once and now you know something about the movement based on the character of one person? That you knew a successful person who "of course" was not a feminist and who was successful? What does any of this mean?

Sometimes I wish I could force people to join a class called, "Dogen Teaches Rational Argumentation for the Internet: Correlation is Not Causation, and Not Everything Is A Logical Fallacy."


Did I say somewhere "Here is the example, therefore the following statement is true"? I think not. It was something more like "here is an sample of my experience, and here is opinion derived from my life experience". I would also like to suggest you to attend a class of "Efficient use of demagogy and straw man arguments", as you clearly aren't very good at using that.

I'll try to repeat my opinion, or most important part of it. Feminism gave gender equality and freedom of choice to women. Radical feminism, very much like traditionalism, believes that there is only one right choice, and women who chose differently are either brainwashed or defective, and should be educated and coerced to chose right. However, even women who chose an ambition of achieving positions of power (politics, business, career and so on, "chose right") and succeed, do not feel any need to be radical feminist activists, as they would gain nothing from its sectarian agenda. On the other hand, women who failed may conveniently shift the blame of their misfortunes from lack of personal qualities and talents to the injustice in society.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3879
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:
Feminism gave gender equality and freedom of choice to women.


EYUP IT'S ALL DONE NOW, EQUALITY GIVEN, FINISHED NOW.

Like Yinello, I applaud your redundant thread necro to spew more of your shitlord opinions.

B-B-B-B-B-BUT I DATED A RADFEM SO NOW I AM A VAGOMANCER

Quote:
Speaking of the girlfriends, this also reminds me of one of mine. An incredibly ambitious, independent and talented. At the age of 23 she was already a chief economist of a major aeronautics R&D company. Not a feminist, of course, but with a will and a lifestyle that would never bend to someone else's liking or comfort. And there is a woman, a well known internet freak in my national segment of the web: alcoholic, unemployed, and very, very radical feminist.


This is dumb. You are dumb.

Quote:
Now this might blow your minds,


No. You are not a person.

Tim & Intooblivion are the same person, right?
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Last edited by Dennis J. Squidbunny on Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please stop being dumb on the internet, you guys.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3879
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH MY GOD, ME, A YEAR AGO, AT THE START OF THIS THREAD wrote:
Are you aware that you come across as yet another boring, condescending shitbag? Is it an accident, or are you doing it on purpose? I want to know what is in your mind now. What is your notion?


srsly tim and int-ooblivion, what is yr notion?
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Ennis



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:
Radical feminism, very much like traditionalism, believes that there is only one right choice, and women who chose differently are either brainwashed or defective, and should be educated and coerced to chose right.


Except that isn't actually what the definition of radical feminism is. Like, even as someone who knows all too well about those who corrupt it (*cough*TERFs*cough*) and how that perversion can be used to hurt people (except guess what those people aren't cis men, they're usually trans women) the core of radical feminism as far as I'm aware is the deconstruction of gender. If "mainstream" or whatever feminism is "men and women should be equal" then radical feminism is "man and woman are arbitrary categories that unnecessarily confine the range of human expression into two boxes and privilege those in one box over the other, and the only way to truly get rid of oppression is to destroy these boxes". Which can be pretty easy to pervert to hate on trans people, but the trans accepting radfems realise that just because something is socially constructed doesn't mean it doesn't have real world consequences and it's transphobic to accept cis women claiming to be women and yet tell trans women, who still experience misogyny on top of transphobia, that somehow despite their experiences of being a woman they "aren't one" because birth assigned sex is destiny is ridiculous. It would be like claiming we all experience the world as children because we were children once and despite going through puberty it changes nothing and we're children forever. Literally children, not metaphorically in some kind of "aren't we all young at heart" way.

On another note, I'm so glad you're back, Dennis.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Tim wrote:
Speaking of the girlfriends, this also reminds me of one of mine. An incredibly ambitious, independent and talented. At the age of 23 she was already a chief economist of a major aeronautics R&D company. Not a feminist, of course, but with a will and a lifestyle that would never bend to someone else's liking or comfort. And there is a woman, a well known internet freak in my national segment of the web: alcoholic, unemployed, and very, very radical feminist.

In conclusion, a very good indication of a viability of any political and social movement is the quality of its membership. If successful and prominent persons are its activists (and if the majority of them are) you can be sure that it has potential (will probably succeed). Otherwise, you may know it to be inconsequential sect.

I'm not sure what your point is. You knew a radfem once and now you know something about the movement based on the character of one person? That you knew a successful person who "of course" was not a feminist and who was successful? What does any of this mean?

Sometimes I wish I could force people to join a class called, "Dogen Teaches Rational Argumentation for the Internet: Correlation is Not Causation, and Not Everything Is A Logical Fallacy."

Did I say somewhere "Here is the example, therefore the following statement is true"? I think not. It was something more like "here is an sample of my experience, and here is opinion derived from my life experience". I would also like to suggest you to attend a class of "Efficient use of demagogy and straw man arguments", as you clearly aren't very good at using that.

Let's remember that you offered examples and a conclusion in a single bit of prose, where the examples were directly related to the conclusion. If you think it's weird for me to assume those things are related then you're both irrational and (if you intended them to be considered separately) just a bad writer. I mean, fuck me, you even started your last bit with "in conclusion," which seems like a pretty clear effort to tie the examples above into the conclusion below. I mean, if they were entirely separate ideas then you wouldn't start a new idea with the phrase, "in conclusion," right? But if they're not entirely separate ideas, then you're hanging your conclusion on the examples provided. And if you do that it seems weird to get huffy when someone points out that your evidence seems a little thin. You're the one who offered it. You can't be mad at me because you think we should consider something as part of your argument that you never mentioned. You should really be mad at yourself.

But wait, there's more! Did I assume those things were necessarily connected in a cause-effect relationship... or did I ask you to clarify your position? Oh snap! Dogen formed a hypothesis and then sought out additional data before reaching a conclusion. That guy is such an asshole. I like hyperbole as much as the next guy, but jumping straight to "har har, you can't read!" is an infantile, knee jerk reaction that won't play well.

Also, let's retire the word "strawman," because apparently no one on the internet knows how to use it correctly. A strawman is when I attribute to you an argument that you never made and then attack it. I never attributed an argument to you, I asked you to clarify the argument you already made, and I offered no real attack against either the argument you did make or an argument you didn't make... so there's no strawman here. How do you know I didn't attack your argument? Because I never made any arguments against them. All I did was ask clarifying questions. If you felt those questions undermined your conclusion that's okay, because if you had been using those examples as the only evidence to support your conclusion then you would have been in trouble.

Quote:
I'll try to repeat my opinion, or most important part of it. Feminism gave gender equality and freedom of choice to women. Radical feminism, very much like traditionalism, believes that there is only one right choice, and women who chose differently are either brainwashed or defective, and should be educated and coerced to chose right. However, even women who chose an ambition of achieving positions of power (politics, business, career and so on, "chose right") and succeed, do not feel any need to be radical feminist activists, as they would gain nothing from its sectarian agenda. On the other hand, women who failed may conveniently shift the blame of their misfortunes from lack of personal qualities and talents to the injustice in society.

I don't have anything to say about this because I'm not an expert on feminism. I just found your logic lacking and wanted to tell you about it.
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Tim



Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:

Except that isn't actually what the definition of radical feminism is. Like, even as someone who knows all too well about those who corrupt it (*cough*TERFs*cough*) and how that perversion can be used to hurt people (except guess what those people aren't cis men, they're usually trans women) the core of radical feminism as far as I'm aware is the deconstruction of gender. If "mainstream" or whatever feminism is "men and women should be equal" then radical feminism is "man and woman are arbitrary categories that unnecessarily confine the range of human expression into two boxes and privilege those in one box over the other, and the only way to truly get rid of oppression is to destroy these boxes". Which can be pretty easy to pervert to hate on trans people, but the trans accepting radfems realise that just because something is socially constructed doesn't mean it doesn't have real world consequences and it's transphobic to accept cis women claiming to be women and yet tell trans women, who still experience misogyny on top of transphobia, that somehow despite their experiences of being a woman they "aren't one" because birth assigned sex is destiny is ridiculous. It would be like claiming we all experience the world as children because we were children once and despite going through puberty it changes nothing and we're children forever. Literally children, not metaphorically in some kind of "aren't we all young at heart" way.


Well, not exactly that, as I see it. There is also a part where gender is an instrument of continued oppression of women by men, due to which they are brainwashed to be oppressed voluntarily. And here comes two of my objections. I call oppression a pure bullshit, since any oppression, by definition is done under a threat of violence of some form. And a thesis that gender roles should be transcended by society as a whole is also purely arbitrary. It may or it may not be. You may not like it, but you are not forced to follow gender stereotype. Majority of people like it, and prefer it to any alternatives and you have no justification at all to call their choice wrong or childish, or demand them to abandon it.

As for the trans topic, I see their problem in the fact that modern medicine cannot quite complete the transformation. It is yet impossible to eliminate all the properties of natural gender and install all the properties of a new one, so a procedure creates someone who is not quite (wo)man, which leads to certain relation in society. Once it can be done, their woes will disappear.


Quote:
On another note, I'm so glad you're back, Dennis.


If you prefer to call me like that, who am I to stop you? Although, I'm quite accustomed to my actual name and am glad that it was available as a username for once.

Dogen, Dennis J. Squidbunny

Sorry, not interested in engaging in exchange of insults. Too old for that, you see.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We won't have to engage in insults if you just stop saying dumb things. Like that post you made where you said you weren't going to engage. That was full to overflowing with dumb things.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:

Quote:
On another note, I'm so glad you're back, Dennis.


If you prefer to call me like that, who am I to stop you? Although, I'm quite accustomed to my actual name and am glad that it was available as a username for once.


take your pills, dad
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3879
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:
There is also a part where gender is an instrument of continued oppression of women by men, due to which they are brainwashed to be oppressed voluntarily. And here comes two of my objections. I call oppression a pure bullshit, since any oppression, by definition is done under a threat of violence of some form.


dad... take your pills

Tim wrote:
And a thesis that gender roles should be transcended by society as a whole is also purely arbitrary. It may or it may not be. You may not like it, but you are not forced to follow gender stereotype. Majority of people like it, and prefer it to any alternatives and you have no justification at all to call their choice wrong or childish, or demand them to abandon it.


you have to take your pills, dad.

Tim wrote:
As for the trans topic,


no dad

Tim wrote:
I see their problem in the fact that modern medicine cannot quite complete the transformation. It is yet impossible to eliminate all the properties of natural gender and install all the properties of a new one, so a procedure creates someone who is not quite (wo)man, which leads to certain relation in society. Once it can be done, their woes will disappear.


dad when you don't take your pills you say things like this you have to take your pills
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad old white straight dudes exist, how else would we learn how to stop suffering in the trans community?
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not even the cry of a helpless baby so much as the unholy shriek of a toddler out to break your will.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:
Dogen, Dennis J. Squidbunny

Sorry, not interested in engaging in exchange of insults. Too old for that, you see.

Is being too old for this supposed to imply that I'm being childish? Because if it were, that would bring the total number of insults I've used to zero, and the total number you've used to one.

Unless you mean my tone. My tone was pretty condescending. Mostly because you were doing a really, really bad job at forming a rational argument. Let's say your logic is "child-like," just to even things up. If you don't like being called out for poor logic, use better logic. That's it. You don't have to talk to me for me to pull apart your posts. I can use them as an educational example for everyone else so they can see how shaky your positions are. Smile
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Radical feminism, very much like traditionalism, believes that there is only one right choice, and women who chose differently are either brainwashed or defective, and should be educated and coerced to chose right. However, even women who chose an ambition of achieving positions of power (politics, business, career and so on, "chose right") and succeed, do not feel any need to be radical feminist activists, as they would gain nothing from its sectarian agenda. On the other hand, women who failed may conveniently shift the blame of their misfortunes from lack of personal qualities and talents to the injustice in society.


I think you are presuming that anti-trans old wave anti-porn radical feminists comprise the entirety of radical feminism

While you are also saying a bunch of dumb stuff I can give you credit in that this is not here individually necessarily dumb as the concept and label of a radfem is largely becoming used as a shorthand for the transphobic radicals that consider themselves the true bulwark of feminism.

but we have a better term for those now, they're TERFS or APFs

Quote:
I call oppression a pure bullshit, since any oppression, by definition is done under a threat of violence of some form.


and this sort of undoes any not-dumb you might have had in your overarching argument

by your logic, my entire country refusing to hire black people for any jobs other than sewer cleaners would not count as oppression

Quote:
It is yet impossible to eliminate all the properties of natural gender and install all the properties of a new one, so a procedure creates someone who is not quite (wo)man, which leads to certain relation in society.


lol do tell us what the Properties of Natural Gender are
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Tim



Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:

I think you are presuming that anti-trans old wave anti-porn radical feminists comprise the entirety of radical feminism

While you are also saying a bunch of dumb stuff I can give you credit in that this is not here individually necessarily dumb as the concept and label of a radfem is largely becoming used as a shorthand for the transphobic radicals that consider themselves the true bulwark of feminism.

but we have a better term for those now, they're TERFS or APFs


This was my response to the definition I was given. Your definition may be different, obviously.

Quote:
and this sort of undoes any not-dumb you might have had in your overarching argument

by your logic, my entire country refusing to hire black people for any jobs other than sewer cleaners would not count as oppression


While there are definitely more prominent black scientists, politicians, businessmen and celebrities than a message size limit would allow to enumerate, I wouldn't touch this topic not to derivate to much. Economical structure of society and property rights/privileges in particular are enforced by the violence of state.

Quote:
lol do tell us what the Properties of Natural Gender are


The most basic and fundamental property of Natural gender are penis with its' obvious functions and the ability to impregnate and Uterus with its' obvious functions and the ability to conceive, gestate and give birth. The most important property of a gender for a person himself is a distinct hormonal structure, that defines almost every characteristic or physiological distinction. At this level we may not swap a reproductive system, nor hormonal structure, nor most of the effects of hormones.
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