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Define "feminism" please
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Echo



Joined: 18 Jul 2013
Posts: 1845

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From talking to some people I know who are transitioning, the bigger problems aren't medical, it's denialist attitudes like those expressed on the previous page.

Maybe someone like Dogen can dig up supporting stats if they care, but even if you are enough of an unmitigated shit to try and define someone (against their express wishes) by their reproductive capacity, I have a strong feeling that you're far more likely to meet someone who's infertile for some other reason than because they're somewhere along the path of transition. So defining people in that manner is, well, somewhere between dumb and offensive.

Then again, the vast majority of people you meet, you won't be engaging with them in a manner where their reproductive abilities are an issue. So why does it make a difference?
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Ennis



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 992
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeahhh okay I tried, I took the time when I am under an insane deadline writing a post giving Tim the benefit of the doubt in that he might be open to new information and the fact that pretty much all of his definitions are wrong but now, nah. Other people can try to explain it to you if they like but honestly I hear enough microaggressions and transphobia in my everyday life, I'm not going to subject myself to arguing with someone who's stuck in the "natural gender is genitals" stage of ignorance. Have fun with the fact that right now you're basically in the equivalent of "women can't vote because of their wandering uterus and female hysteria, it's just science" of our modern-day issues. I'd love to have the privilege to walk around being so completely unaware but unfortunately I've basically had to become an expert on gender just to justify my existence to myself, let alone other people.
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tomsalmon



Joined: 24 Aug 2014
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i had no idea there were so many transsexuals in this forum, im from blackpool and theres a pretty large transsexual and transvestite community, but this forum still has a loads more per total amount of users, who'd have thought
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Ennis



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Protip: "transgender" is generally preferred to "transsexual" now, you should probably only use "transsexual" for people who use it to describe themselves. It sounds kind of clinical and vaguely othering, like how the right wing uses "homosexual" but progressives tend to use "gay". I mean it depends on context but in this one, yeah, you probably didn't intend it but it gives off a "wow I had no idea there were so many of those freaks here!" vibe. Transgender is an umbrella term that covers anyone whose gender identity does not match that which they were assigned at birth. And it's generally rude to refer to people as "transsexuals" or "transgenders" because they're adjectives, not nouns. Yes, I'm aware that this usage is everywhere, so is everything outlined in Word Crimes, doesn't make it any less incorrect. If you want to refer to trans people, use, well, "trans people". I guess you can also use "transgender people" but trans is shorter. Do not use "tranny", ever, it's a slur and I swear if anyone here argues with that I am going to cuss at you like Dennis. Don't make me unleash my inner profane Australian.
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Alpha Aim



Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*whistles* damn, 18 pages. That's a lot.
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cleocatra



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
Protip: "transgender" is generally preferred to "transsexual" now, you should probably only use "transsexual" for people who use it to describe themselves. It sounds kind of clinical and vaguely othering, like how the right wing uses "homosexual" but progressives tend to use "gay". I mean it depends on context but in this one, yeah, you probably didn't intend it but it gives off a "wow I had no idea there were so many of those freaks here!" vibe. Transgender is an umbrella term that covers anyone whose gender identity does not match that which they were assigned at birth. And it's generally rude to refer to people as "transsexuals" or "transgenders" because they're adjectives, not nouns. Yes, I'm aware that this usage is everywhere, so is everything outlined in Word Crimes, doesn't make it any less incorrect. If you want to refer to trans people, use, well, "trans people". I guess you can also use "transgender people" but trans is shorter. Do not use "tranny", ever, it's a slur and I swear if anyone here argues with that I am going to cuss at you like Dennis. Don't make me unleash my inner profane Australian.


yes all very true

I am a gender-neutral person myself. I identify as genderqueer or non-binary but I've found it's easier to say "hi I'm not male or female I'm gender neutral" to people.

I am not australian though I am Brummagem from Mercia and living in Londinium.
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tomsalmon



Joined: 24 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
Protip: "transgender" is generally preferred to "transsexual" now, you should probably only use "transsexual" for people who use it to describe themselves. It sounds kind of clinical and vaguely othering, like how the right wing uses "homosexual" but progressives tend to use "gay". I mean it depends on context but in this one, yeah, you probably didn't intend it but it gives off a "wow I had no idea there were so many of those freaks here!" vibe. Transgender is an umbrella term that covers anyone whose gender identity does not match that which they were assigned at birth. And it's generally rude to refer to people as "transsexuals" or "transgenders" because they're adjectives, not nouns. Yes, I'm aware that this usage is everywhere, so is everything outlined in Word Crimes, doesn't make it any less incorrect. If you want to refer to trans people, use, well, "trans people". I guess you can also use "transgender people" but trans is shorter. Do not use "tranny", ever, it's a slur and I swear if anyone here argues with that I am going to cuss at you like Dennis. Don't make me unleash my inner profane Australian.


No offence intended, you just don't see too many trans people in public, at least not the obvious ones, even where i live in brighton, 'gay capital' on the Uk, and theres quite a few in this little community. It always confused me how people who feel like the opposite gender and people who have undergone major surgery and therapy are grouped as the same, even though there is a huge biological difference. Im pretty sure a man who identifies as a woman would not be allowed in a womens public restroom, for example, but a man who has changed into a woman would. So many terms that people label themselves as, i find women attractive, but prefer the companionship of men, but i dont really want to fuck either. I dont think i need a label for that. That's quite interesting, there's a trans oriented club on the way to the train station, which uses the word 'tranny' in its name, and lots of Blackpool trans people refer to themselves as 'trannys', maybe its just a different culture, or maybe it's similar to some black people referring to each other as 'nigger', you know what i mean
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Darqcyde



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11901
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
And it's generally rude to refer to people as "transsexuals" or "transgenders" because they're adjectives, not nouns.

Actually, in general, I think it's a pretty good idea to not describe people by unnecessary adjectives unless they are pertinent to the topic being discussed. In America, the most common example of this is referencing someone's race or ethnicity.

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard statements like "So this black guy . . ." or "There was this white girl . . ." or "So I was talking to this Spanish . . ." or "There was this Chinese . . ." and it really, really, really bothers me. I try to ignore them, but as a multi-racial person, sometimes it's really hard. Sometimes I can make it into a joke when people say things "This white girl . . ." to which I can cut them off and say "Did she have blonde hair and blue eyes like my mother?" but it's cold comfort in the end.

Gender and sexual orientation work the same as race and ethnicity. Unless the topic you're talking about involves gender or sexuality, there's no reason to bring those things into the conversation.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11185

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:

Quote:
and this sort of undoes any not-dumb you might have had in your overarching argument

by your logic, my entire country refusing to hire black people for any jobs other than sewer cleaners would not count as oppression


While there are definitely more prominent black scientists, politicians, businessmen and celebrities than a message size limit would allow to enumerate, I wouldn't touch this topic not to derivate to much. Economical structure of society and property rights/privileges in particular are enforced by the violence of state.


you 'wouldnt touch this topic not to deviate too much'

lol

no, you're missing my direct message. your definition of "oppression" is complete bullshit that denies actual oppression.

listen carefully: if this country was one in which all businesses refused to hire black people for anything other than the most base and demeaning jobs, your logic would deny that this extraordinary amount of oppression counted as oppression

so

your definition of oppression is bullshit and shouldn't be the fundament for any discussion on oppression, marginalization, or anything of the sort
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 7487

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean on top of Sam's VERY VALID and entirely important point; you seem to be gleefully ignoring the fact that women are literally being terrorized with actual violence up to and including rape and death threats for having the audacity to have opinions about games.

Three women have been driven from their homes due to the severity of these threats. The threats leveled at Ms. Sarkeesian recently read eerily similar to the threats made by that jackass kid who literally killed like 6 people because he blamed all women ever for his own inability to get a date.

If you -still- want to dismiss all of that as some kind of anomaly, I also haven't gotten into the disturbing trend of women getting shot or stabbed to death for refusing some dude's advances. I mean seriously things like saying no to going to prom.

At what point do these very real and very terrifying threats of violence against women become oppression to you? When you personally smell the blood from your old man tower?
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blood? That's just the blood of cowards who couldn't hold their own, necessary sacrifices for the greater good </sarcasm>
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a more serious note, here's someone very smart, speaking in very plain English, about why feminism is important on a global scale and what it can accomplish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z96TEKHtt0M

The full article: http://bigthink.com/think-tank/empowering-women-doesnt-mean-disempowering-men-with-tim-hanstad
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Yinello



Joined: 09 May 2012
Posts: 3458

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsalmon wrote:

No offence intended, you just don't see too many trans people in public, at least not the obvious ones, even where i live in brighton, 'gay capital' on the Uk, and theres quite a few in this little community.


Gee I wonder why. Could it be all the people who could potentially hurt of kill them? Naaaah.

Quote:
It always confused me how people who feel like the opposite gender and people who have undergone major surgery and therapy are grouped as the same, even though there is a huge biological difference. Im pretty sure a man who identifies as a woman would not be allowed in a womens public restroom, for example, but a man who has changed into a woman would.


After surgery and medication there really isn't that much of a biological difference. In the womb we all start out as women, men develop their man-ness later on. As for your weird example, gender divided bathrooms are something society has placed, we could easily have unisex bathrooms. Just like what defines a man and woman , it's something we can change for the better of everyone and not just a select group that gets benefit from it (after all, why the fuck should birth determine who we are? It's not like our weight and height then affect us now, why should our bodies).

Quote:
So many terms that people label themselves as, i find women attractive, but prefer the companionship of men, but i dont really want to fuck either. I dont think i need a label for that.


People can call themselves whatever they want. You don't need to remember anything, just respect their decisions. Not understanding something is no excuse to fight it or worry about it.

Quote:
That's quite interesting, there's a trans oriented club on the way to the train station, which uses the word 'tranny' in its name, and lots of Blackpool trans people refer to themselves as 'trannys', maybe its just a different culture, or maybe it's similar to some black people referring to each other as 'nigger', you know what i mean


It's their word to reclaim and not ours. When a word has such a heavily loaded background to it, the best thing is simply not to use it. It's not hard.

I split up your comment into several quotes because jesus christ it was such a clusterfuck.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11274
Location: PDX

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most important thing I've learned about gender identity in the last year or two is that if my goal is to connect with people, rather than distance myself from them, then I should refer to them in whatever way they prefer. This isn't unique to people who are trans, it's just not as natural for me yet (compared with the preferred name many people have - the nickname or short form). So, some people are okay with "tranny," and that's fine. Some lesbians call themselves "dykes." Some people will hate those terms, and that's fine, too. It's not up to me. The point isn't to identify one term you can use on everyone, it's to be okay letting a person refer to themself however they like, and to respect them enough to do the same.

That's what I've learned so far. Razz
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still use the word tranny occasionally out of habit. And literally only when I'm talking about vehicle transmission assemblies. We'd never called them anything else, then through a quirk of suck the term ends up a derogatory shorthand for things that are not vehicle transmission assemblies.
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