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Define "feminism" please
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Darqcyde



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11898
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I almost got in trouble at work a little bit ago when a customer asked me a question about their shrubs overgrowing.

Without thinking too much, I told here that there's a few different products that they sell to retard the growth of plants namely through lowering the pH. She seemed kinda horrified at first, but luckily I picked up on it, and re-explained to her that generally plants will grow slower in more acidic soil. After a few seconds she kinda half chuckled and smiled and thanks for the advice. It was awkward to say the least.
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EverythingsJake



Joined: 26 Jun 2014
Posts: 2032
Location: The Jazz Age

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsalmon wrote:
No offence intended,


My dear, anything that begins with the phrase "no offense, but..." is nearly always followed by something offensive. The "no offense" in no way negates anything offensive that follows it. This is the verbal equivalent of sticking out one's foot to trip someone else deliberately, then saying, "Oh, sorry!"

tomsalmon wrote:
you just don't see too many trans people in public, at least not the obvious ones,


That might possibly be because the majority of people who are trans, gay, or anywhere else on the spectrum of genders and sexual orientations look rather like...

...well...

...people.

It's not like everyone's going to prance down the street waving a flag that says, "OH HAI I'M TRANS WHAT ARE YOU?" now, is it?
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tomsalmon



Joined: 24 Aug 2014
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverythingsJake wrote:
tomsalmon wrote:
No offence intended,


My dear, anything that begins with the phrase "no offense, but..." is nearly always followed by something offensive. The "no offense" in no way negates anything offensive that follows it. This is the verbal equivalent of sticking out one's foot to trip someone else deliberately, then saying, "Oh, sorry!"

tomsalmon wrote:
you just don't see too many trans people in public, at least not the obvious ones,


That might possibly be because the majority of people who are trans, gay, or anywhere else on the spectrum of genders and sexual orientations look rather like...

...well...

...people.

It's not like everyone's going to prance down the street waving a flag that says, "OH HAI I'M TRANS WHAT ARE YOU?" now, is it?


No offence intended was in response to ennis saying he was getting bad vibes from my message. Generally it is fairly easy to notice traits of certain genders and sexualities, the way they dress, walk, talk for example. Admittedly i did have transvestites in mind when i made that statement, and well, it quite hard not to notice men in drag
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EverythingsJake



Joined: 26 Jun 2014
Posts: 2032
Location: The Jazz Age

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsalmon wrote:
Generally it is fairly easy to notice traits of certain genders and sexualities, the way they dress, walk, talk for example.


Many people believe that. Many people would be surprised how many "genders and sexualities" walk by them every day without displaying any outward signs of the tired stereotypes one sees in the mass media. Often it's only after you've known someone for quite some time that you learn interesting things about their home life that you'd not have guessed on first meeting them, generally the sorts of things that don't come up in everyday workplace conversations because, really, they're no one's business. And once one does know, it matters little, because the work still carries on as it always has.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 7486

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsalmon wrote:
Admittedly i did have transvestites in mind when i made that statement, and well, it quite hard not to notice men in drag


Transwomen are not men in drag.

Let me repeat that. You don't appear willing to educate yourself about something in any way shape or form before you start talking about it, so I'm going to be as clear as possible with this message.

Transwomen are not men.

One more time, for good luck:

TrAnSwOmEn ArE NOT mEn.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a minor point, and I don't want it to override the points made by Jake and Samsally.

But saying transgender people are "generally noticable" is probably irrational. Think like a scientist. How would you know if this were true? How would you know if it were not true? How would you know how many you didn't notice? Unless you know how many you don't notice (unlikely), you can't know whether this sentiment is true. Smile
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Echo



Joined: 18 Jul 2013
Posts: 1845

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Similarly to Dogen's point, a number of people like to just get on with their lives without having their genders/sexualities/whatever noticed by others. Calling them "noticeable" in a blanket manner is pretty rude and unhelpful. Looking to "spot" them or treat them differently if you do can make them hugely uncomfortable. Mentioning that you've spotted someone can be actively harmful. It's just generally a whole world of Not Cool.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 3625
Location: Sinfest's Help Desk

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only kind of "spotting" you should do is dogspotting

who doesnt love a good ol' round of dogspotting

seriously though assuming someone's gender identity or sexuality or like, whatever else, based on superficial and shallow traits such as their physical appearance is kind of shitty. dont do that. be a better man.
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tomsalmon



Joined: 24 Aug 2014
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
tomsalmon wrote:
Admittedly i did have transvestites in mind when i made that statement, and well, it quite hard not to notice men in drag


Transwomen are not men in drag.

Let me repeat that. You don't appear willing to educate yourself about something in any way shape or form before you start talking about it, so I'm going to be as clear as possible with this message.

Transwomen are not men.

One more time, for good luck:

TrAnSwOmEn ArE NOT mEn.


i never said they were, i meant literally men wearing women's clothing. Thats just my main memory of trans people in Blackpool where i grew up. Maybe there's a different understanding, but in my mind, if people who identify as the opposite sex are grouped with people who have undergone surgery and therapy to change into the opposite sex, then surely people who like to dress and act like the opposite sex are grouped with them too. My mistake if transvestites are not considered trans people to some
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Ennis



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 992
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomsalmon wrote:
Samsally wrote:
tomsalmon wrote:
Admittedly i did have transvestites in mind when i made that statement, and well, it quite hard not to notice men in drag


Transwomen are not men in drag.

Let me repeat that. You don't appear willing to educate yourself about something in any way shape or form before you start talking about it, so I'm going to be as clear as possible with this message.

Transwomen are not men.

One more time, for good luck:

TrAnSwOmEn ArE NOT mEn.


i never said they were, i meant literally men wearing women's clothing. Thats just my main memory of trans people in Blackpool where i grew up. Maybe there's a different understanding, but in my mind, if people who identify as the opposite sex are grouped with people who have undergone surgery and therapy to change into the opposite sex, then surely people who like to dress and act like the opposite sex are grouped with them too. My mistake if transvestites are not considered trans people to some

Can someone who is not me deal with this, I'm redoing someone's shot and this film is due in a week.
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tomsalmon



Joined: 24 Aug 2014
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
tomsalmon wrote:
Samsally wrote:
tomsalmon wrote:
Admittedly i did have transvestites in mind when i made that statement, and well, it quite hard not to notice men in drag


Transwomen are not men in drag.

Let me repeat that. You don't appear willing to educate yourself about something in any way shape or form before you start talking about it, so I'm going to be as clear as possible with this message.

Transwomen are not men.

One more time, for good luck:

TrAnSwOmEn ArE NOT mEn.


i never said they were, i meant literally men wearing women's clothing. Thats just my main memory of trans people in Blackpool where i grew up. Maybe there's a different understanding, but in my mind, if people who identify as the opposite sex are grouped with people who have undergone surgery and therapy to change into the opposite sex, then surely people who like to dress and act like the opposite sex are grouped with them too. My mistake if transvestites are not considered trans people to some

Can someone who is not me deal with this, I'm redoing someone's shot and this film is due in a week.


are transvestites in the umbrella of trans people like you said yes or no
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Ennis



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 992
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shortly, unless you know whoever it is personally how the hell do you know what they identify as? How can you know the person on the street you see as a "man in a dress" isn't a trans woman?

The only place you can probably assume someone is a "man in a dress" is a drag show, and even then some of those "men" have turned out to be trans women trying to express their gender through some kind of outlet. People do not require surgery or hormones to be the gender they are, and surgery especially is expensive as hell for the most part. Trans people have to jump through a ridiculous amount of hoops just to get hormones too. And there are people who have nonbinary genders who don't want to physically transition, they might be MAAB and wearing a dress, so even if they're not trans women they're not "men in dresses" either.

Also I don't know how old you are but if it's 30 or over back when you were growing up there was a much blurrier divide between trans women and "transvestites", not least because the criteria needed for a diagnosis as trans required that trans women be "passable", feminine and straight. So those who couldn't handle living life pretending to be a straight guy would likely turn to the next best thing, living as a "transvestite" or "drag queen". Nowadays the divide is much clearer as trans women have more options and it is at least slightly more understood. The only person who I can think of as an example of a present transvestite is Eddie Izzard, because he describes himself as such. But even though it's a clearer divide nowadays in one way, in another it's not because of aforementioned nonbinary/genderqueer people who are included in the transgender umbrella, who perhaps previously might have considered themselves tranvestites or butches. But now there's a better label so they use that. This isn't a simple thing where there's some kind of neat dividing line between categories, most of it is self-identification.

MAAB - Male Assigned At Birth
FAAB - Female Assigned At Birth
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Darqcyde



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11898
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a transwoman, the Emmy nominated Laverene Cox:



Here's a transvestite:



Also, I think Ru has something to say about labels:

Quote:
You know, I can call myself a nigger, faggot, tranny all I want to, because Ive fucking earned the right to do it. Ive lived the life, RuPaul said during his recent interview with Marc Maron. Ive been on the front line. And if I call my girlfriend bitch, she knows Im talking about it from a place of love. She knows that. But people out of school can take that same information and try to use it against me, because the ego cannot pick up the intention behind it.


I'm a huge fan of both of these people, they are incredible entertainers.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11898
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may have posted this in this thread, but I'm too lazy to look, but after posting it in the other thread, I thought it seemed relevant to this thread. Here is a good breakdown of 3rd wave feminism and gender https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqtNSdDFGBM
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