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Monique - does she even have a personality any longer?
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you noticed pretty much nothing, then, and devil's advocate is an annoying derailing intellectual game.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because 'Nique complaining and having bad days has never been part of her characterization.

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Rune



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I think you noticed pretty much nothing, then, and devil's advocate is an annoying derailing intellectual game.


Or a gaslighting technique on par with, "j/k it was totes just a joke."
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nay, she was perky and fun and vivaceous and had all these nuances to her character. Now she's totally defined by an idea! She never has any fun!
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
I think you noticed pretty much nothing, then, and devil's advocate is an annoying derailing intellectual game.


Or a gaslighting technique on par with, "j/k it was totes just a joke."


Pretty much. And the devil's advocate stuff that is brought up here is not usually stuff I haven't heard or thought of before. And even when it is, devil's advocate is such a crap way to go about it.

"Here, I'll let you waste time pretending you're having an actual conversation with someone, when in reality it's all an intellectual exercise designed by me, the more enlightened person, so I can assist you, the uneducated mouse in a maze. And then when you realize what I'm saying, you will gasp with child-like delight and praise my magnanimousness for deigning to educate you."
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

She's NEVER had another agenda to focus her time, nay, her very projected essence of being, on.



And being summed up by a single word or idea? That has NEVER happened to dear ol' Monique! She could never have been reduced to a single word to sum up her presence in the comic until feminism!



Do I have to troll through the entire archives and pull up every time she (or Squig dressed as her) did the BAM? Is the point made?

I leave you last with this:

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Katsuni



Joined: 11 May 2013
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Hey newbie, if you're going to play devils advocate, do yourself a favor say so at the start of your posts Because seriously, coming out at the end of a lengthy "debate" and going HA-HA I WAS PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE ALL ALONG! doesn't win friends or influence people.

If you do that then it doesn't work =P

Honestly though, I'm not actively trying to win friends; those who have a similar mindset will be friendly and enjoy such discussions. Those who do not, I wouldn't get along with anyway. Friendships occur naturally without having to go looking for them so long as you be yourself ^.~

Influencing people, on the other hand, is a fine art, and largely involves misdirection and making them think they're the ones in charge. It's only by springing the "nope, you weren't" at the END that they can influenced at all. If they think at the start that you're trying to influence them, they're resistant to it. By leading them into the discussion with intentionally baited phrasing, they'll think it was their idea all along to run in and state their mind and opinion.

As such, the trick is to bait them in, get them to go through the motions while they still think that they had any conscious decision in the matter rather than being played like a puppet, and then you can point out afterward what just happened.

Either they learn from the mistake and go "oh crap, that worked way too well, better than it should have, maybe I should use my brain for realsies next time instead of just assuming I am when I was really running on pure instinct", or they get pissy and whine about being manipulated, or try to attack the person who led them around by the nose.

I'm not really concerned about the latter two; the ones who complain about being manipulated have no real intent to change. They want the world to change for them without lifting a finger themselves, and as such, it's a wasted effort to bother paying them any heed. The ones who resort to ad hominem attacks against the manipulator are also more or less incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions, and as such, again, I have no further reason to dwell upon their opinions beyond that point.

It's only those who recognize that they could have actually done something to prevent that situation from occurring, by being consciously aware of what they were doing, and what I was doing, and claim ownership of their fate and change themselves to be better able to handle that situation the next time it comes up... those are the ones that I want to converse with, because they can be taught, they can learn, and they can become better than they are.

The others complain about how hard life is, or how unfair it is, but the ones who accept that they are not objects, but prime movers, are the ones who actually step up to the mental playing field and challenge fate.

I can work with them, and I can have great conversations with them. I can even make friends with them. The others are just background noise, little more.

This is a test to see which category people fall into. You failed. Don't worry though, I run little tests like this constantly, with the key being that the people taking the test can't be consciously aware that they're being tested or it skews the results.

Answer everything as if it were a challenge to your core beliefs, verify everything, prove everything, question everything. Understand what you believe, and take responsibility for your words and actions.

Yes, I played a rather blatantly malicious trick; it's not backpedaling to accept responsibility for a worse crime than the one suggested in order to somehow "save face" by looking worse than I would have otherwise. =P

Seriously, look at your own argument; I look worse for confessing the truth behind my actions, and it makes me look like a manipulative bitch (I actually am, if you hadn't noticed already =P ), instead of just someone trying to save face and failing at it.

As such, let's ask ourselves how this would be beneficial to me:

If I were trying to save face, but did so in a manner that was ineffective, and obviously would backfire, then why would I do so? Assuming I have even the slightest bit of social contact, one would assume I have enough social grace to know this was a bad idea, so I'd either be obscenely incompetent, or socially disabled (such as asperger's) if this was my intent. The eloquence of my writing suggests neither of these to be the case.

If I were trying to make friends, I wouldn't have told them I was pulling their strings; I would just keep pulling them, so clearly that's not the case, either.

If I were trying to influence people with malicious intent, I wouldn't tell them I was doing so to their face, either.

If I were a forum troll, I wouldn've been a hell of a lot more snarky, and a lot better at covering my tracks so that I couldn't be held accountable.

In fact, the only way that telling you I was baiting you in and actually explaining the reasoning behind such makes any sense, is if I were trying to teach you something by example, and put you on the spot in order to do so.

The point of the matter is simply thus: I pulled people into a discussion using a manipulative tactic in order to A; get people discussing a topic I was interested in rather than just have them tell me to "check for it elsewhere" then complain if I necro'd the threads, and B; to get a feel for the people of the forum.

I intend to stay for awhile, and one of the first things to do in any new social setting is to test the waters, see who believes what, who thinks what, who will stand up for their beliefs, and who will back down and point fingers at the first opportunity presented to them.

I'm very good at playing off people's instincts, and have decades of experience in honing that particular skill. I work as a writer; I need to be able to elicit emotion on command of my audience, to force them to think a certain way, or to see what I see. I need to know how they think, and to understand why the do what they do.

You will be profiled every time you respond to any post I read, whether I replied or not. I will be building up a mental road map of who exists here, so that I can better my discussion value, be that in terms of entertainment or education.

You'll understand soon enough, if you don't already, but I'm not looking to be nice; I'm looking to be ruthlessly efficient in gaining knowledge and understanding of myself, others, my surroundings, everything.

I'm a bit of a mild case of psychopathy in that I view relationships as a mathematical concept; give and take. I give X, you provide Y in return; if they equal out in my favour or at least relatively at par, all is good. If it equates too highly in my favour, I feel disproportionately unhappy, and will not seek to continue such a relationship. If I provide a great deal of X, and you provide little in the way of Y, then it's practically abusive, and I will again not seek to continue such a relationship.

X and Y are variables, and can range from anything from laughter, understanding, love, sexual satisfaction, money, you name it. Anything that is beneficial in a relationship is considered and weighed against things which are not in an orderly, mechanical manner. It's kinda creepy, and I'm consciously aware of this fact, but it's kinda how my mind works =P

Now... normally I'm typically bubbly, perky and all bouncy and happy! At the moment, however, I'm new to the forum and scared as hell. Unlike most people, when I get scared, instead of hiding or freezing in fear or becoming shy, I break down into a meticulous mechanical method of problem solving. Everything becomes a puzzle to be solved and fixed, and as such, you barely even register as human beings to me at this moment - you're machines to be tested for operational parameters.

Once I get a lil more comfy, and know the people I'm dealing with, I'll cut back on the cold, blunt posts significantly, and you'll find far less of the tests to see how people react.

They'll never truly end; it fascinates me to see how people solve problems or act in certain situations, and I'll lead you off a cliff just to see if you try to flap your arms on the way down... yeah, actually I'm a pretty terrible person! I'm not going to argue that point =P

Don't worry about it though, you'll get used to it or you won't. Some find it quirky and oddly endearing, others find it unnerving and want to burn me with fire. 50/50 which way you go, honestly, and I can live with either decision =3

Those who like my thought process will get along well with me. Those who don't, won't. That's all there is to it; I have no desire to pretty myself up or to pretend to be someone I'm not just to get a shallow "friend" who doesn't actually care about me -except when I'm doing what they want me to do- . I've had enough "friends" like that, and have no further interest in more.

So yeah, I'm not really trying to impress you, and I'm not going to be trying to be overly friendly with a false face. What you see is what you get, nothing more and nothing less. I'm being remarkably blunt and upfront here in telling you exactly what you have to work with.

Anything else you apply to me beyond what I've stated, is probably your imagination or you're likely projecting, as I honestly don't have much more motivation in life beyond learning and teaching what I learn to others, while having a bit of fun along the way.

Think of me as you will, but understand that I'm not going to put on a social mask to look pretty for you just to make you happy with me in a dishonest, held at arm's length kind of barely tolerant form of "happy with me". You like me for who I am, or you don't. I don't need your blessing to be myself; I've put up with that crap more than long enough and have no further intention of catering to that societal mindset.

Anyway, hope that clears things up for you! ^.^

Yes, I'm a cruel, malicious, heartless ice bitch at my core! Fortunately I'm okay with that =3
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Katsuni



Joined: 11 May 2013
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
She's NEVER had another agenda to focus her time, nay, her very projected essence of being, on.


Ooh, thanks Rune! Yeah, see this is what I mean =3

She used to do this kind of thing before anyway! She was just very much so more... 'niqueish about how she went about it previous is all.

It's a real word, honest. I made it up just now and scribbled it into my dictionary with indelible ink, so it must be true.


EDIT:
Rune wrote:
Because 'Nique complaining and having bad days has never been part of her characterization.


I think this also brings up the very point I was making... "bad days" is, well, an occasional thing. Sometimes she's just miserable, sometimes it was a breakup, sometimes it was PMS cramps, sometimes it was completely random stuff that got her in a pissy mood. It was part of what made her who she was.

The problem is, it's a hell of a lot more common now, and it's very rare to see Monique when she's in a good mood anymore. Again, this stresses the point of feminism (which I mostly agree with anyway =P ), but it does so in a manner which is detracting to her character.

The first image on this reply shows full well how she used to be able to be all spunky and full of life, over the top, very much so bigger than life as a whole, while still tackling the same tough questions that needed to be looked at.

Now... she's practically a burnout in comparison. My question really comes down to "what happened? Why is Monique so dead in comparison to her previous vibrant self?".

At this point, it practically sends the message that fighting the patriarchy is a cure that's worse than the disease. She was a stronger force for societal reform before she knew about the patriarchy, and she enjoyed life an awful lot more back then as well.

The message that crap like the patriarchy can't be allowed to exist is a good one, but the delivery is practically flat out stating that ignorance is bliss, and Monique was better off not knowing about the patriarchy. I'm not really sure that's the message that I think was intended to be given off.

Anyway, the message is sound, yet the delivery has practically killed a character in the process and is more or less providing the exact opposite message as intended. I'm just not sure if this is intentional as a lead up to something else (as Tat has done before), or if it's an oversight by striving too hard to grind the message home and butchering it in the process.


Last edited by Katsuni on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you a robot?

Because wow, even I'm surprised and confused by your level of emotional detachment.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what?

I'll save you some time. Rather than waiting for you to add me to your mental map of forumgoers, I will simply tell you what manner of cat I am:

I am Istancow.

I do not take you seriously.

I do not take anything seriously.

I have my own species of lion.

Have a good day.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody cares how much you don't care if you're liked or not. You're protesting a bit much there.

Nobody cares just how willing you are to martyr yourself to be right among us blindered silly folk. (Though, again, I think you do care what people think of you, you want to be seen as right and insightful, bestowing your wisdom upon us regardless of how unlikable that makes you.)

Nobody cares how much you were expecting to be torn down for what you have to say, (except maybe to wonder bemusedly why, if you're so gosh-darn aware of how your approach is going to be received, why you don't modify that approach somewhat.) Certainly not enough to worry about letting you slide by because it's a trap, oh-hoh-hoh, how right we'll prove you with our mockery. (On that note, just watch you, JUST WATCH, the sun will RISE tomorrow, and you'll see just HOW RIGHT I AM.)

Nobody cares. You are not contributing here.

You had something worthwhile to say on the trans* thread, so maybe stick to what you know and have actual experience in, rather than tut-tutting at everyone else here, hmm? Because right now, what you're contributing? Is nothing more than amusement to those of us watching you stumble around and make an ass of yourself.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I notice or miss, is for one reason or another, that colored comic above was during my favorite time in the comic's art, for me personally. But...it's natural for people to change styles as they grow. I get over it. I like his more artistically simple abstract style too. It's more in line with a lot of current media.

The rest of the stuff...Meh.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You think that getting people to waste time with you in a thread is an example of your stellar powers of manipulation? You don't appear to have observed the massive time wasting that goes on here. Really, all you have to do in order to get people to engage with you here is say...anything. Anything at all.

Devil's advocate is bullshit.
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Tat's style more now than I liked it in, say, 2010.

But yeah, the really old style was great.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like the old style better, but at the same time I think Tat improved a lot and needed to move on. That style was a result of Tat being kind of sketchy, really, so the lines repeated themselves a lot. I imagine it was done in pencil and ink, instead of 'Shop like we know it's done today.

Sketchy worked great for Sinfest... but I dunno how well it could translate to other comics.
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