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2013-06-29: Pedotron Needs Little Girls
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
diagram12345 wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
oh Tat, you devil, you.

i knew someone was going to come in here and, because they hate the sisterhood that bad, they'd find some way to force themselves to side with the pedophile.


Heh.

What's a word for "that which makes you laugh and cry at the same time"? If it doesn't exist, we need to create one.


"Gwah."

I just made it up. For things that make you go, "gwah."
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Adyon wrote:
joandark wrote:
It's a medical disorder, you guys. It's an incurable mental illness.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia

Well, technically, according to this article, the guy above would be a "child molester" most likely, because they are acting upon it.


But true. Pedophilia is a troubling situation. It's just the same as any other sexual orientation in that the person doesn't have a choice. The difference of course is that unlike any other sexual choice, your desires are morally wrong. The other person can't be considered accountable for their decisions.

I do like that we get things like this though that address people needing to get help to curve their desires. This is a REAL problem that affects more than just children. Not all pedophiles are horrible people. Many are lonely and scared of their own desires. Similar to how abstinence classes don't work for treating underage pregnancy, saying pedophiles are all evil and only treating them that way only stops them from trying to find help and causes more of them to go down that other path and ACT upon their desires.


I think im going to have to take a step back from this and im going to remind the people posting here, that there are actual survivors of childhood sexual assault on this forum, so y'all should probably think VERY carefully about how you phrase things.

Because the loneliness and anxiety of people burdened with pedophilia is pretty much nothing compared to the years of therapy, shame, sexual dysfunction and panic attacks to the survivors of a pedophiles slipups.

It is a dangerous mental illness whose slipups have repercussions generations down the road and not just for the principals in the event.

Oh by all means, it is a very problematic illness. As I said, it's a troubling issue, because the outcome it may create is not one we can sympathize with at all. When they do give in to those urges, it most likely will ruin someone else's life.

But that's why the term "pedophile" isn't likely the right word. Child Molester is. Pedophiles need to be encouraged to know they have an actual real condition, a problematic one that many other people have. They need to learn what to do to curve it, or if it fails, as the article said, use drugs to lower their sex drive. But if we don't find a way to separate the many who DO have those cravings from the ones who act upon them, those will never find help. The real issue is that there's a LOT of pedophiles out there. The vast majority never act upon it, other than their imaginations.

I honestly don't have perfect solutions for this. It's why I called it a "troubling" situation. I hate the ones who give into that desire, yet for those who would have that desire for one reason or another, it would be like a curse to have a desire you, yourself KNOW is wrong. Only a deluded person is able to convince themselves it's not, and then they BECOME a child molester...and then we have warranted reason to hate them.

Really the problem is that society thinks of the term pedophile to mean one who approaches and goes after kids, not one who has thoughts of them.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think one of the problems with this is a lot of people don't care that kids are abused by pedophiles. They'd rather the kids just shut up. While I'd love it if pedophiles could get effective treatment that would prevent them from hurting anyone, I don't currently see tis working.

I also bristle at the conflation of homosexuality and pedophilia. That is a really bad example to use, for reasons which I hope you are aware of. Please try using another example next time.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really could also say heterosexuality from that concept. But it's true that it's a bad example to use, since the two have been put together by society as a means to hurt the LBGT movement. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Really, it's easy to compare with any sexual preference in the sense that we don't really know for sure what causes people to have individual sexual preferences. I mean, to some point we do...like take things like having "foot fetish". Being attracted to feet is pretty easy. The brain develops in such a way that we have connections. The area of the brain that recognizes feet is close to things about sexual attraction. If that connection happens to also connect with the part that recognizes feet, you become attracted to them. Some more-so than others.

So, with pedophilia, we have something we designate as a "mental illness". We don't know what causes it, and as the article points out, we don't know how to cure it. At most we can "condition" people not to like it as much with varying degrees of success.



Though, I also thought I should mention something my wife was pointing out to me, that pedophilia is also not always correct to label on people for another reason. We label all child molesters as pedophiles. In fact, there are many times child molesters are not pedophiles, as they don't actually sexually like children. Instead, they enjoy the power that they hold over children through sex. Those people are worse than any pedophile who "slips up" even. They're malicious and deserving of every punishment that can be thrown at them.
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Tekii



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
Though, I also thought I should mention something my wife was pointing out to me, that pedophilia is also not always correct to label on people for another reason. We label all child molesters as pedophiles. In fact, there are many times child molesters are not pedophiles, as they don't actually sexually like children. Instead, they enjoy the power that they hold over children through sex. Those people are worse than any pedophile who "slips up" even. They're malicious and deserving of every punishment that can be thrown at them.



Yeah no, they are both equally fucking horrible and I don't get why you're trying to make people who are sexually attracted to children who molest them somehow more sympathetic compared to people who aren't sexually attracted to them and molest them. They are both completely horrible the second they touch a child that way for whatever reason and they both deserve every punishment that can be thrown at them.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're both horrible. Yes. But you mean you wouldn't want to punish someone who had actual malicious intent more than someone who didn't? Think about the differences you see between murder and manslaughter.

So here's my point. In this instance, we don't punish child molesters as hard in our society as some would argue we should. I know what you're saying. You're saying both should get every possible torture and punishment we can humanly think of.

Now think of the reverse. If our laws are a bit weak and there's a LIMIT to how much we can punish them, if we were able to analyze people, and we could find out that someone wasn't even thinking they "loved" the child and that the child had the development to reciprocate their feelings. No. We found out they just wanted to do it so they could feel POWERFUL by making someone else feel WEAK. You wouldn't want our society with its "weak" laws to find a way to punish these people MORE because of their intent?

That's why I condemn that more. Because it's not someone "deluded" into thinking they're behavior was okay. No. They straight out did it in the most evil way. So yes, I can and WILL hate someone more who does something for an evil reason. I'm not going to feel OR imply sympathy for a pedophile who acted on their desires, but I WILL hate the other more.
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Tekii



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
They're both horrible. Yes. But you mean you wouldn't want to punish someone who had actual malicious intent more than someone who didn't? It's the difference between murder and manslaughter. In this instance, we don't punish child molesters as hard in our society as some would argue we should.

So here's my point. I know what you're saying. You're saying both should get every possible torture and punishment we can humanly think of.

Now think of the reverse. If our laws are a bit weak and there's a LIMIT to how much we can punish them, if we were able to analyze people, and we could find out that someone wasn't even thinking they "loved" the child and that the child had the development to reciprocate their feelings. No. We found out they just wanted to do it so they could feel POWERFUL by making someone else feel WEAK. You wouldn't want our society with its "weak" laws to find a way to punish these people MORE because of their intent?

That's why I condemn that more. Because it's not someone "deluded" into thinking they're behavior was okay. No. They straight out did it in the most evil way. So yes, I can and WILL hate someone more who does something for an evil reason. I'm not going to feel OR imply sympathy for a pedophile who acted on their desires, but I WILL hate the other more.


Well I'm sure those kids they sexually abused will feel so much better knowing their abusers will get a lighter sentence because hey, they can't help themselves they think they love kids and the kids love them back.

So no I wouldn't want to punish one more then the other because they're both still creating victims who will have to live with what those people did to them for the rest of their lives. They should both be fully punished to the full degree of the law and if something that horrible happens to them I highly doubt they're going to care if someone thought their abusers really loved kids and so was somehow not as bad as those oh so evil unloving molesters.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you failed to read what I wrote...again.


I didn't say punish one LESS. I said increased laws to punish the other MORE.

Or in reality, I'd say continue to just punish them both the same. You don't seem to get what I'm actually saying though. I'm not advocating changing laws right now. I'm saying I can have MORE detest for one because of the motives.



Where I think I lost you and you weren't able to keep up is is that I also was saying I could have empathy for someone who has sexual thoughts for children that will make sure to never act on them. The amount of self-loathing and hatred people like that often feel for themselves, because they think themselves a monster, yet they can't stop being sexually attracted even as it makes them more miserable.
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Tekii



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
And you failed to read what I wrote...again.


I didn't say punish one LESS. I said increased laws to punish the other MORE.

Or in reality, I'd say continue to just punish them both the same. You don't seem to get what I'm actually saying though. I'm not advocating changing laws right now. I'm saying I can have MORE detest for one because of the motives.



Where I think I lost you and you weren't able to keep up is is that I also was saying I could have empathy for someone who has sexual thoughts for children that will make sure to never act on them. The amount of self-loathing and hatred people like that often feel for themselves, because they think they're a monster, yet they can't stop being sexually attracted even as it makes them more miserable.



Honestly I don't really care how much self-hatred or loathing these people have for themselves because the second they touch a kid that is their own decision they made and that child is the one who will have to live with it for the rest of their lives. So you can choose to have empathy all you want but I will hate both with equal loathing because the second either of them touches a child they are a sexual predator and I don't really care what flavour they come in they should be punished to the full extent of the law.

And if the law can make punishments more harsh for one group I would fully expect it to make punishments equally as harsh for the other group. You say you want to punish one group more but that still equals a lighter punishment for the other offender then they could be getting.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. Never mind. Your reading comprehension here is seeming pretty horrible. Confused

Ha ha. I'm not having "empathy" for someone who HAS done anything. I'm having "empathy" for someone who has those thoughts despite not wanting them OR ever acting on them. And I even SAID I'd keep the punishments the same.

But I'm curious. You think the law shouldn't consider intent when dealing punishment. So do you feel the punishment should be the same for someone who commits murder as someone who commits manslaughter? Just curious. In both cases the person is just as dead.
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Ronald



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm, for whatever reason, reminded of the not-too-long-ago case of Gilberto Valle, the cop who supposedly planned to abduct, kill, and eat several women (I myself am not entirely convinced that he had any serious intent to do so, that it wasn't all just a fantasy that he allowed to get out of control, but I didn't follow the investigation closely enough to know what if anything convinced the jury that he in fact had serious intent, and nobody asked me, anyway). On some forum or another, some people were commenting that he should get the death penalty, despite the fact that he, uh, well, hadn't actually hurt anybody (yet), let alone killed anybody (yet). Thinking about doing something or even planning out a course of action to do something isn't the same as actually doing it.

Which I think may be Adyon's point.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Adyon, I'm not sure if you're aware of how you're expressing yourself, but it would be very easy for people to read something like this:

Adyon wrote:

Oh by all means, it is a very problematic illness. As I said, it's a troubling issue, because the outcome it may create is not one we can sympathize with at all. When they do give in to those urges, it most likely will ruin someone else's life.


and say: the outcome of giving into those urges is someone fucking a child. That is not problematic or troubling. That is child fucking.

Adyon wrote:

Though, I also thought I should mention something my wife was pointing out to me, that pedophilia is also not always correct to label on people for another reason. We label all child molesters as pedophiles. In fact, there are many times child molesters are not pedophiles, as they don't actually sexually like children. Instead, they enjoy the power that they hold over children through sex. Those people are worse than any pedophile who "slips up" even. They're malicious and deserving of every punishment that can be thrown at them.


Again, "slips up" = abusing a child.

I went to quote more of your posts, but I'm sorry, and I'm sorry to judge, but they both left me feeling queasy.

Yes I think someone should be punished for abusing a child whether they meant to abuse a child or not.

Your manslaughter v murder comparison is ridiculous. Murder is if I purposely run you over, manslaughter is if I accidentally run you over. There is no such thing as accidental child abuse.

I understand the idea that pedophiles are capable of living with this disease and of fighting their urges every day and never allowing themselves to be tempted and even employing chemical castration. That said, if they ever abuse a child they should be taken away from society and never allowed back into it.

I know pedophiles are not kept in jail forever, but you understand what I mean? You can't accidentally abuse a child. You can't check a text message on your phone and look up and realise you're abusing a child.

Yes, okay, at the heart is all you're saying is you feel bad for people who go through life being sexually attracted to children and never act on it, and you hate some child abusers more than other child abusers, sure, what the fuck ever.

I think you need to seriously look at the language you are employing and your blase approach to the troubling issue of child abuse.

Also, I think pedophile jokes are fucking awful, and the strips attempt to mine humour out of child abuse is, like pedobear, fucked.
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Ronald



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Also, I think pedophile jokes are fucking awful, and the strips attempt to mine humour out of child abuse is, like pedobear, fucked.


What makes you think Tat is even attempting to be funny in this one? The days when Tat was trying to make people laugh each and every day are long gone. IMHO.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that a serious question, or are you just being a dick? Is anyone going to look at an alien in a trenchcoat with a sign, or the aliens eyes in panel 4 and not think its a joke? You fucking robot.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Hey Adyon, I'm not sure if you're aware of how you're expressing yourself, but it would be very easy for people to read something like this:

Adyon wrote:

Oh by all means, it is a very problematic illness. As I said, it's a troubling issue, because the outcome it may create is not one we can sympathize with at all. When they do give in to those urges, it most likely will ruin someone else's life.


and say: the outcome of giving into those urges is someone fucking a child. That is not problematic or troubling. That is child fucking.

No, I'm saying it's a problematic illness, because while I can feel empathy for someone who's never acted on it, I can't forgive someone who has. Basically, it's an illness. They can't help having it. But it's problematic to simply think of it as an illness, when the effects are so catastrophic. In other words, from the very beginning I thought it's hard to fully empathize with an illness of this nature. Thus the whole thing is so problematic, as it brings up so many conflicting emotions.

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Your manslaughter v murder comparison is ridiculous. Murder is if I purposely run you over, manslaughter is if I accidentally run you over. There is no such thing as accidental child abuse.

I'm not saying there is. I'm saying that intent is a major part of how we judge sentences in our world. So a person whose aim is malicious should be judged more sharply, just like how someone who brutally murders someone is judged harsher than someone who simply puts a gun to their head. I could have said that, but I chose two common terms that are all about motive. I'm not equating the difference of murder/manslaughter directly. Also, in this case, I'm not advocating them actually getting lighter sentencing. Just that I hate someone whose doing it for malicious reasons more. Maybe that's my thing. I just don't like someone who enjoys hurting others. Not "they're enjoying themselves and someone is getting hurt." No I mean, they're ENJOYING the fact they're making someone hurt. That just pisses me off tenfold.

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:

Yes, okay, at the heart is all you're saying is you feel bad for people who go through life being sexually attracted to children and never act on it, and you hate some child abusers more than other child abusers, sure, what the fuck ever.

I think you need to seriously look at the language you are employing and your blase approach to the troubling issue of child abuse.

My language was meant to talk about the issue/implications of pedophilia itself and how we can think of this issue as more complex than simply one blanket death threat to anyone and everyone out there who might harbor sexual thoughts for children.

Actually, I was mostly coming at this from the angle of trying to develop strategies for dealing with the issue that prevent more child molestation/rape. The thinking is that if you treat someone like a criminal before they commit a crime, they feel isolated and more likely to go on the defensive. As I originally said, people's straight blanket hatred of "pedophiles" instead of child molesters causes the issue to worsen. There's a reason people like that are less likely to get help or talk to someone about their problems. OUR language as a society says they're already judged for having the thoughts in the first place. People will figuratively/literally fling shit at them for having the thoughts if they open up.

I mean, I wonder what would have happened if someone had come on here and said, "This alien really pisses me off. I hope the Sisterhood creams him properly. Still, I'm a little uncomfortable with this. I can't say I don't have those urges too." (or something a little less cliche/bad script writing sounding) Would people on here ignored that person's comment? Would they have politely asked how they work to curve those issues or if they're seeking help to make sure they don't act on them? Or would they have lambasted them with how evil they are and told them to kill themselves, etc.?

And that type of isolation causes psychological issues that are more likely to INCREASE their chances of acting on their urges. Being unable to separate a mental illness like "pedophilia" from acting on it and actually becoming a "child molester" causes us to treat this problem in such a way that it only hinders the real desired outcome of actually preventing child molestation.
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