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2013-06-29: Pedotron Needs Little Girls
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1162
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Adyon, I think I get where you're coming from. I think I get where everyone else is coming from, too, and I don't think there's actually much disagreement in principle. But, you're right, the terminology isn't well understood, and I think that's where a disconnect is happening here.

Someone who molests a child needs to be put away, and face heavy consequences, and that child needs every bit of help and support a society can offer, whether or not the molester was actually experiencing pedophilia or not.

Someone who experiences pedophilia is not automatically a child molester, but may be in danger of becoming one.

Not treating them like they are automatically a molester, but still recognizing they are at risk for becoming one and seriously offering lessened-stigma, realistic, and attractive help to mitigate their pedophilia may prevent them from ever crossing that line, and thus prevent a child from suffering abuse.

Am I getting warm?
Warm? More like hot. That's a bullseye! =P That's pretty much 100% what I'm saying. And a lot more straight to the point than I have a habit of putting things too, so thanks!
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3721
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, look, I am on board with Rune's synopsis of what you're actually trying to say. Between - and I know I keep saying this but come on - you refering to child abuse as a troubling effect, your calling me ignorant despite me being pretty fucking patient, you bringing up your psychology undergrad and AGAIN connecting murdering child molesters with murdering gay/trans people and this has been a TROUBLING conversation.

You have to stop likening pedophilia/child molestation and homosexuality because they are two deeply different things. Only one of them is consensual.

Your weird crusade is weird, Adyon. I never called you stupid, but I do think you're talking out of your arse. If you want the conversation to be more successful in future, maybe you could back the fuck up off business like this:

Adyon wrote:
Oh by all means, it is a very problematic illness. As I said, it's a troubling issue, because the outcome it may create is not one we can sympathize with at all. When they do give in to those urges, it most likely will ruin someone else's life.


I would not have stayed while you floundered for so long if you hadn't opened your ideas (which I agree with, treatment and prevention can only begin with a safe way to find that treatment and prevention) with the suggestion that when a child is abused it will 'most likely' ruin their life.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:

I would not have stayed while you floundered for so long if you hadn't opened your ideas (which I agree with, treatment and prevention can only begin with a safe way to find that treatment and prevention) with the suggestion that when a child is abused it will 'most likely' ruin their life.


for what it's worth, i think that's more a stylistic thing, the need to not state things in black-and-white terms (even when things should be stated in black-and-white terms.) i find i write like that myself - i keep inserting 'probably's and 'maybe's and maybe even 'most likely's, and then i have to go through and clear them all out.

it doesn't necessarily mean he thinks there are really a lot of cases where being abused as a child _doesn't_ ruin the person's life - it's just this sort of tick that keeps one from saying things flat-out.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Yeah, look, I am on board with Rune's synopsis of what you're actually trying to say. Between - and I know I keep saying this but come on - you refering to child abuse as a troubling effect, your calling me ignorant despite me being pretty fucking patient, you bringing up your psychology undergrad

Well, cool. Glad we're on the same wavelength (more-or-less). It didn't seem like you were getting me at all there. I will point out if you go back, I never said "child abuse" was troubling. I said "pedophilia" was, pedophilia being the disease. But most people can't separate the two. I was talking very loosely assuming everyone here would get me, as the forums are usually pretty up on terminology. (most of the time that's true) However, obviously not in this case. Everyone seemed to assume I was talking about child abuse itself. In that quote of me specifically, I said it's a troubling "issue", but the issue is the fact that pedophilia exists, not that child abuse does. I apologize for my unclear use of language there.

And my psychology undergrad studies only got mentioned because it's where I drew my basis for that part of my opinion, which I was asked about. It was the best answer I could think to that question.

Quote:
You have to stop likening pedophilia/child molestation and homosexuality because they are two deeply different things. Only one of them is consensual.

I'm not likening it to homosexuality. I'm going by the definition of it used that it's a sexual preference, like other sexual preferences, heterosexuality included. The difference between it and other forms of sexuality is that it's considered a disease. Homosexuality may have once been branded as such, but quite simply...they were wrong. Homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality and poses no threat. I could just stop mentioning pedophilia as a sexual preference of course, (Though I don't know why that has to immediately constitute homosexual instead of heterosexual.) but that's what it is currently considered.

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
I would not have stayed while you floundered for so long if you hadn't opened your ideas (which I agree with, treatment and prevention can only begin with a safe way to find that treatment and prevention) with the suggestion that when a child is abused it will 'most likely' ruin their life.

Also, sorry if that offends. I just never work in absolutes. If I had wanted to sound stronger I could have skipped that 'most likely' part, but my brain adds that kind of stuff automatically out of habit when something is not an absolute.

And as you can see/have seen, I'm very verbose at times. I realize it. I also know that probably hinders my point on forums more than helps, but not only is it my way of talking about in-depth things like this, it benefits me outside of forums.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1162
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:

I would not have stayed while you floundered for so long if you hadn't opened your ideas (which I agree with, treatment and prevention can only begin with a safe way to find that treatment and prevention) with the suggestion that when a child is abused it will 'most likely' ruin their life.


for what it's worth, i think that's more a stylistic thing, the need to not state things in black-and-white terms (even when things should be stated in black-and-white terms.) i find i write like that myself - i keep inserting 'probably's and 'maybe's and maybe even 'most likely's, and then i have to go through and clear them all out.

it doesn't necessarily mean he thinks there are really a lot of cases where being abused as a child _doesn't_ ruin the person's life - it's just this sort of tick that keeps one from saying things flat-out.
Oh, or I could have let Mouse say it for me 2 second before I posted...and better/more clearly than me (as usual). I need to work on my diction.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
mouse wrote:
Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:

I would not have stayed while you floundered for so long if you hadn't opened your ideas (which I agree with, treatment and prevention can only begin with a safe way to find that treatment and prevention) with the suggestion that when a child is abused it will 'most likely' ruin their life.


for what it's worth, i think that's more a stylistic thing, the need to not state things in black-and-white terms (even when things should be stated in black-and-white terms.) i find i write like that myself - i keep inserting 'probably's and 'maybe's and maybe even 'most likely's, and then i have to go through and clear them all out.

it doesn't necessarily mean he thinks there are really a lot of cases where being abused as a child _doesn't_ ruin the person's life - it's just this sort of tick that keeps one from saying things flat-out.
Oh, or I could have let Mouse say it for me 2 second before I posted...and better/more clearly than me (as usual). I need to work on my diction.


You rock the arts hard enough. You don't need everything, lol.

So, we headed to a group hug here? I could use some happy after that DISASTER Sunday thread.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1162
Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah thanks. I'll try to work on my communication skills none-the-less, but I appreciate it. I definitely wouldn't sacrifice my art, so I'll call it a good trade. =P

Also, sure! I love happy!


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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

now i totally envision the photographer wearing some 1870s outfit, with his head under a cloth focusing the camera, saying "now everyone hold real still" and firing off a load of flash powder.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MEERKAT GROUP HUG! *squeeeeee!*
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 1993
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
I just never work in absolutes.

*snerk* Sorry Adyon, I don't mean to seem like I'm picking on you; I just find that line pretty funny.
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almost a shame to waste dennis' talent on him.
except it's always a pleasure to see a good dennis insult.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People do kill transgender and gay people for being who they are. Part if that is a widespread belief that gay people are all child molesters. Hence it is important to keep examples of pedophilia way far away from gay and transgender.

What is more, I think paraphilias should not be lumped together with sexualities.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, that's just everyday stupidity. =/ I'm not sure that'll change until the overall stigma against homosexuality and transgenders is gone, because the same people also think "the gays" are responsible for AIDS and all of them have it. >.< Basically, I could probably say whatever I wanted, and no matter what the people who want to believe stupid shit will believe stupid shit.

But yeah, I'm aware of the stigma that was set that "gay men" were the child molesters. Because...y'know..."norrrrmaaal" people don't do that. *rolls eyes* Even though, like that page I listed shows, most child molesters don't fall into any category, with most being your average person, majority white, married men. (But white married men are the average too in the country, so basically...normal.) I also had another study on the fact that homosexual numbers were the exact same likelihood as straight numbers. I don't know. To me, encouraging information on what it really is helps the problem, because it's not even well known among the smarter circles what the disease consists of. I didn't used to know, because it had never been an issue.

And I still don't get it really. I'd love to see more studies. Like for instance about Catholic priests. That whole stereotype. Is it the "pedophilia" disease, that they're actually attracted and that's why they had no problem casting aside normal sex? Is it simply the power in those situations and they're not ACTUALLY pedophiles at all? Granted, the chances of getting a study like that done when the Church would be all about shutting out invasion quickly would be difficult.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's something I always found interesting...

Media-wise, I think paedophilia has become the get-go resource to inspire irredeemable hatred upon someone. This counts really in an active or a passive manner: a guy having a collection of kiddie porn in his house has automatically become unlikable, regardless of past or future. Murderers, arsonists and even rapists (under a really skilled writer) can get atonement or at least sympathy. Paedophiles can't.

...Why is that?


Just to clarify: Yes, I do think that it's quite terrible. Still, at the same time I firmly believe in second chances. Redemption is a word I'm particularly fond of.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
a guy having a collection of kiddie porn in his house has automatically become unlikable, regardless of past or future.

Child porn is created by abusing children. So, yeah, collecting it would make you instantly "unlikable."

Quote:
even rapists (under a really skilled writer) can get atonement or at least sympathy.

I'd need evidence of this.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was Spike from Buffy. Whether that redemption was successful or not is up to the viewer, though.
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