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6/30/2013 Domestic Violence
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1025

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
How do you know she was acting on THAT. Particular. Protocol. Period. when she was with him.


Because, so far, we have been given one, single example of a fembot that has been able to go about her business in the world without that protocol directing her. She is the exception that proves the rule of the default. The "pleasure protocol" is factory default:



Unless we are shown something that specifically indicates that the default has been overridden, we can safely assume that the default is in operation.


Good Cliche Thinking there Rune, "Exception that proves the rule" is a logical fallacy.


Dude, I am not using the fallacy just because I used the phrase. I'm not saying that there is a general rule that always applies except for this time just because. I'm saying that there is a default, and we have been shown the default being changed in one case, and unless we are shown the default being shown again, it is reasonable to assume that the default is in place. How difficult is that to grasp? You asked what my reason was to assume the protocol was in place. It's a pretty solid reason. What's your reason for assuming that the default was changed?


Then why do you have a problem with them being programmed to love a person and being owned. If they have a "default" personality that can only be changed by outside forces NOT under their control, then they are not persons, the fembot in the flashback is not an individual because she is not "A single human being as distinct from a group, class, or family." They are all the same when they come off the production line.


First, answer my question, don't avoid it.

Second, congrats, you can Google.

Third, you are not allowed to erroneously accuse me of arguing both that they are and aren't people, and then do the same in actually. If they -are- people, then that by itself is enough reason to at least look at that programming sideways.

Fourth, though they may be given the same basic physical structure and coding, each bot is still an individual unit with its own experiences and memories, and Botsy is proving a capacity for autonomy now that one single protocol has been changed. This tells me that such protocols are layered on top of everything else that a fembot is, including a demonstrated capacity for emotion. That's people-enough for me.

Meaning that an entire person, with capacity for feelings, making decisions, having experiences, and storing and experiencing memories, was created JUST to put that protocol over, and control for another person's pleasure.

Yeah. That's a problem.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 2882

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
This whole "what is self" question is kind of a theme right now, isn't it?


Well, that's just it, Tat keeps bringing in more and more new stuff while pretty much ignoring a scenario that's been in place for about two years.

Li'l E is Slick and Monique and Seymour and the others' neighbor, and Pebbles lives with him, meaning she is their neighbor too. They probably see each other every day, if only to nod "hello" to OSLT. When is somebody (in the strip) going to start caring about what happened to them?

For that matter, why are Slick and Squig not besieging Li'l E with questions about how on earth he got a hot Devil Girl to live with him (sure, there seems to be no romance involved, but S and S don't know that and might not even believe it if told) and can he tell them how to do it? That would set things in motion right there, because "New" Li'l E probably knows little if anything about who Slick and Squig are. Only "Classic" Li'l E knew that.

As Tat introduces more and more characters, we have less and less idea of how much any of the characters know about each other. And I'm not even going to start again on the question of where the heck does Fuchsia live...
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1025

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lich Mong wrote:
Rune wrote:
That doesn't mean that it's connected to reality in the same way as those emotions triggered by real things, or that one should make the same choices based on them, or establish the same relationships to things outside of themselves.

So, if I get scared because I thought I saw something, but there was nothing really there, then I'm not really scared? I can only be scared of real things, not things in a movie or something.

Ok, got it.
Bye.


BYE.

Whether or not you're really being charged by a lion, or just think you are, requires very different responses to deal with sanely. And if you think you're being charged by lions all the time when you're not, you're insane. You are experiencing fear based on illusion, not reality, and you'd be insane to shape your life and make decisions based on the assumption that it is real.

Love is more than just feels. It is a circumstance that has something to do with something outside of your own brain. It needs a reality to navigate. All else is madness.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1025

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Rune wrote:
This whole "what is self" question is kind of a theme right now, isn't it?


Well, that's just it, Tat keeps bringing in more and more new stuff while pretty much ignoring a scenario that's been in place for about two years.

Li'l E is Slick and Monique and Seymour and the others' neighbor, and Pebbles lives with him, meaning she is their neighbor too. They probably see each other every day, if only to nod "hello" to OSLT. When is somebody (in the strip) going to start caring about what happened to them?

For that matter, why are Slick and Squig not besieging Li'l E with questions about how on earth he got a hot Devil Girl to live with him (sure, there seems to be no romance involved, but S and S don't know that and might not even believe it if told) and can he tell them how to do it? That would set things in motion right there, because "New" Li'l E probably knows little if anything about who Slick and Squig are. Only "Classic" Li'l E knew that.

As Tat introduces more and more characters, we have less and less idea of how much any of the characters know about each other. And I'm not even going to start again on the question of where the heck does Fuchsia live...


I'm not sure that they'd even recognize Pebbles, from their first interaction with her. But, yeah, it'd be nice to get some resolution there.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 785

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:

First, answer my question, don't avoid it.

Second, congrats, you can Google.

Third, you are not allowed to erroneously accuse me of arguing both that they are and aren't people, and then do the same in actually. If they -are- people, then that by itself is enough reason to at least look at that programming sideways.

Fourth, though they may be given the same basic physical structure and coding, each bot is still an individual unit with its own experiences and memories, and Botsy is proving a capacity for autonomy now that one single protocol has been changed. This tells me that such protocols are layered on top of everything else that a fembot is, including a demonstrated capacity for emotion. That's people-enough for me.

Meaning that an entire person, with capacity for feelings, making decisions, having experiences, and storing and experiencing memories, was created JUST to put that protocol over, and control for another person's pleasure.

Yeah. That's a problem.


3. So I have to hold myself to a higher standard than you? As Shadowcell has said before on that matter "Why exactly?"

4. Did you forget that the reality zone gave her freedom, NOT the past memories of the fem-bots, and she was able to change that on her own power, no help from the sisterhood? So yes, she is an exception, but she doesn't prove the rule.

Also, another thing that has different experiences and stores memory though are all technically the same, Video Games. No one experiences a video game the same way as everyone else, and no one plays a video game the same as everyone else, they do have trends that are similar, but each experience and play through is unique.

That doesn't mean they have a personality under it all though.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1025

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Rune wrote:

First, answer my question, don't avoid it.

Second, congrats, you can Google.

Third, you are not allowed to erroneously accuse me of arguing both that they are and aren't people, and then do the same in actually. If they -are- people, then that by itself is enough reason to at least look at that programming sideways.

Fourth, though they may be given the same basic physical structure and coding, each bot is still an individual unit with its own experiences and memories, and Botsy is proving a capacity for autonomy now that one single protocol has been changed. This tells me that such protocols are layered on top of everything else that a fembot is, including a demonstrated capacity for emotion. That's people-enough for me.

Meaning that an entire person, with capacity for feelings, making decisions, having experiences, and storing and experiencing memories, was created JUST to put that protocol over, and control for another person's pleasure.

Yeah. That's a problem.


3. So I have to hold myself to a higher standard than you? As Shadowcell has said before on that matter "Why exactly?"

4. Did you forget that the reality zone gave her freedom, NOT the past memories of the fem-bots, and she was able to change that on her own power, no help from the sisterhood? So yes, she is an exception, but she doesn't prove the rule.

Also, another thing that has different experiences and stores memory though are all technically the same, Video Games. No one experiences a video game the same way as everyone else, and no one plays a video game the same as everyone else, they do have trends that are similar, but each experience and play through is unique.

That doesn't mean they have a personality under it all though.


Same standard, bucko, not higher, lower, or different in any way. I never said they weren't people. I said several times that they are.

What does the past memories vs. reality zone, or even the Sisterhood have to do with any of this? That is such a non-sequitur from what I said. I still don't think you're reading half of what I write.

Fine, you don't think they're people. In which case, why the hell are you still in this conversation? To defend the guy who scrapped his bot, because she's just a thing and he doesn't have to care, but it's still love because he wasn't actually trying to buy a girlfriend and really is just into objects, (and it's not objectification,) even though the title of the strip is "Domestic Violence," because you've got some inexplicable dislike for metaphor?

In that case, he's not about to get a bot-beatdown, he's just going to suffer an appliance-related home accident.
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Mercian



Joined: 27 Feb 2013
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
dude crayven

Shadowcell already spoke for you

did we give you permission to speak for yourself in his place?



eeeenope


Now and forever, this will be the Nopehorse in my mind. Bounce on, proud Nopehorse, bounce on.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 785

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Rune wrote:

First, answer my question, don't avoid it.

Second, congrats, you can Google.

Third, you are not allowed to erroneously accuse me of arguing both that they are and aren't people, and then do the same in actually. If they -are- people, then that by itself is enough reason to at least look at that programming sideways.

Fourth, though they may be given the same basic physical structure and coding, each bot is still an individual unit with its own experiences and memories, and Botsy is proving a capacity for autonomy now that one single protocol has been changed. This tells me that such protocols are layered on top of everything else that a fembot is, including a demonstrated capacity for emotion. That's people-enough for me.

Meaning that an entire person, with capacity for feelings, making decisions, having experiences, and storing and experiencing memories, was created JUST to put that protocol over, and control for another person's pleasure.

Yeah. That's a problem.


3. So I have to hold myself to a higher standard than you? As Shadowcell has said before on that matter "Why exactly?"

4. Did you forget that the reality zone gave her freedom, NOT the past memories of the fem-bots, and she was able to change that on her own power, no help from the sisterhood? So yes, she is an exception, but she doesn't prove the rule.

Also, another thing that has different experiences and stores memory though are all technically the same, Video Games. No one experiences a video game the same way as everyone else, and no one plays a video game the same as everyone else, they do have trends that are similar, but each experience and play through is unique.

That doesn't mean they have a personality under it all though.


Same standard, bucko, not higher, lower, or different in any way. I never said they weren't people. I said several times that they are.

What does the past memories vs. reality zone, or even the Sisterhood have to do with any of this? That is such a non-sequitur from what I said. I still don't think you're reading half of what I write.

Fine, you don't think they're people. In which case, why the hell are you still in this conversation? To defend the guy who scrapped his bot, because she's just a thing and he doesn't have to care, but it's still love because he wasn't actually trying to buy a girlfriend and really is just into objects, (and it's not objectification,) even though the title of the strip is "Domestic Violence," because you've got some inexplicable dislike for metaphor?

In that case, he's not about to get a bot-beatdown, he's just going to suffer an appliance-related home accident.


I thought about it, and this is why I don't like these comics. He want's us to feel bad for something that is a thing with programmed responses. The only person that isn't one, is Fury-bot, she has consciousness and free will.

However if this same example was used in a show like Futurama, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Because there, the robots are not all alike, they clearly have emotions and personalities besides (servitude) and even the ones that are not advanced like bender have a personality.

He'd rather have a constant supply of things he can just stuff in a fridge that won't really have a big impact on the story, rather than fleshing out a character or bother with giving them separate personalities. Were supposed to feel bad for them and get worked up, but the next time he needs to have a violence comic, so basically Tat is using these things the same as the people were supposed to chastise in these comics.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9194

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Not that I think this has anything to do with why other dudes were mocking him, but what makes you think they "both were happy," by any reasonable assessment? She was programmed, purchased, and acting on protocol, and the moment the dude wasn't perfectly happy with his piece of property, he "killed" and disposed of her.

How the hell do you get "both happy" from that? There are huge inherent problems and underlying dysfunction with the entire scenario from start to finish.


My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 785

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Rune wrote:
Not that I think this has anything to do with why other dudes were mocking him, but what makes you think they "both were happy," by any reasonable assessment? She was programmed, purchased, and acting on protocol, and the moment the dude wasn't perfectly happy with his piece of property, he "killed" and disposed of her.

How the hell do you get "both happy" from that? There are huge inherent problems and underlying dysfunction with the entire scenario from start to finish.


My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?


Would be a great generalization if these things were genetically engineered, but their not, they are machine parts... we even see inside them.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Sam wrote:
Rune wrote:
Not that I think this has anything to do with why other dudes were mocking him, but what makes you think they "both were happy," by any reasonable assessment? She was programmed, purchased, and acting on protocol, and the moment the dude wasn't perfectly happy with his piece of property, he "killed" and disposed of her.

How the hell do you get "both happy" from that? There are huge inherent problems and underlying dysfunction with the entire scenario from start to finish.


My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?


Would be a great generalization if these things were genetically engineered, but their not, they are machine parts... we even see inside them.


Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on break at work, just dropping by to say that Rune's efforts are nothing short of heroic in the face of an unrelenting tide of imbeciles.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Sam wrote:
Rune wrote:
Not that I think this has anything to do with why other dudes were mocking him, but what makes you think they "both were happy," by any reasonable assessment? She was programmed, purchased, and acting on protocol, and the moment the dude wasn't perfectly happy with his piece of property, he "killed" and disposed of her.

How the hell do you get "both happy" from that? There are huge inherent problems and underlying dysfunction with the entire scenario from start to finish.


My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?


Would be a great generalization if these things were genetically engineered, but their not, they are machine parts... we even see inside them.


Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken.


But your not actually killing an organism to do it, Bio genetically engineering just to biologically improve a race to be servitude is ethically wrong. Bioengineering to improve the life of an individual is alright. But Robotics, there is no moral quandry, because Robots don't have a personality besides the ones we program them with.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Sam wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Sam wrote:
Rune wrote:
Not that I think this has anything to do with why other dudes were mocking him, but what makes you think they "both were happy," by any reasonable assessment? She was programmed, purchased, and acting on protocol, and the moment the dude wasn't perfectly happy with his piece of property, he "killed" and disposed of her.

How the hell do you get "both happy" from that? There are huge inherent problems and underlying dysfunction with the entire scenario from start to finish.


My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?


Would be a great generalization if these things were genetically engineered, but their not, they are machine parts... we even see inside them.


Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken.


But your not actually killing an organism to do it, Bio genetically engineering just to biologically improve a race to be servitude is ethically wrong. Bioengineering to improve the life of an individual is alright. But Robotics, there is no moral quandry, because Robots don't have a personality besides the ones we program them with.


And here we tinker with metal, to try to give it a kind of life, and suffer those who would scoff at our efforts. But who's to say that, if intelligence had evolved in some other form in past millennia, the ancestors of these beings would not now scoff at the idea of intelligence residing within meat?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
I'm on break at work, just dropping by to say that Rune's efforts are nothing short of heroic in the face of an unrelenting tide of imbeciles.


I was wondering where all the sane people had got to.
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