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2013-07-06 Spot the Creepy Pornsick Stalker Dude
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
ironically, merest could actually be out doing what he might think is an actual bit for the betterment of mankind, because he could be going somewhere where people will listen to his pedantically veiled rape apologism.


That is a serious accusation that you cannot back up; for, other than saying that I have said no such thing, I said not a thing about rape. Your argument attacks a straw man. But I may admit to pedantry. It possibly depends on whether you are interested in a stray observation on the relationship between classes and the connoted properties of its members.
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I am tired of you, and the fact that there are new people making the same arguments the first wave who got tarred and feathered out of here did just means that any tolerance I had for these "well meaning" questions is long since rubbed away.


Seeing something vaguely triangular, you assume it's a pyramid, and, having seen one of those before, faint at the cliche. I am not sure that you consistently see past the arguments that you ascribe to people. But I concede that there are some distasteful arguments circulating in these forums - as well as some distasteful accusations.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

other people have already demonstrated how your, uh, "argument" is rape apologism, which i note you have not tried to defend--probably because you know you can't, and have settled instead for mealy-mouthed denial. it depends entirely on blaming the victim, for not "realizing" that "the creepy pornsick stalker dude has so many qualifiers that there can't be that many around"--with the insinuation being that it's your own fault if you're worried about him.

accusation backed up. i don't know if you think you're being funny, but, spoiler alert: you're not. fuck off.
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I just say, I find it upsetting the way some guys react to these issues and just fixate on rape like it's the only thing a woman has the right to want to avoid.

I once had a guy acquaintance who was making uncomfortable comments at me all the time, and at a point where for a group activity it had been suggested that I stay over at his house for scheduling issues, I expressed concern about it to my then-boyfriend and his reaction was like, "what's the problem, he won't do anything." As in anything physical, as in the comments that I'd already gotten didn't count as "anything."

His mind immediately jumped to a physical sexual assault, and if I wasn't worried about that then what was the problem?

Getting verbally creeped on is bad enough. Having non-violent violations of my personal space while getting verbally creeped on is bad enough. Getting followed around a store by some creepy asshole who "just wants to know my name" is bad enough. Getting shouted at when I won't play along and flirt is bad enough.

So the "just relax" cadre is right in that I don't actually feel rape per se is a huge worry on a daily basis but I resent the idea that I should just put up with all the OTHER stuff that happens because its not a big deal because it doesn't happen to be rape.

There's no textual evidence here that Nique is "scared of getting raped" when she walks down the street here. I usually am not either, but there's a whole world of other unpleasantness that you are well advised to be on guard for.

Just last weekend a cat calling guy tried to grab me by the arm as I walked past him. And that wasn't nearly the worst incident that weekend.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3316

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I am tired of you, and the fact that there are new people making the same arguments the first wave who got tarred and feathered out of here did just means that any tolerance I had for these "well meaning" questions is long since rubbed away.


Seeing something vaguely triangular, you assume it's a pyramid, and, having seen one of those before, faint at the cliche. I am not sure that you consistently see past the arguments that you ascribe to people. But I concede that there are some distasteful arguments circulating in these forums - as well as some distasteful accusations.


Rolling Eyes

And yet here you are called out on rape apologism.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
I can't say the paranoia's unjustified-a good handful of my female friends in college were stalked by one guy who seemed to take any act of kindness towards him as evidence the girl was in love with him. Then he'd enter stalker mode. (To the school's credit, they actually did a *lot*, including getting to the point that the head of the math department informed all teachers that he aws never, ever to be paired with women on group projects. They couldn't just outright kick him out, since he hadn't done anything *illegal*, just really goddamn creepy.) I'm sure there are lots of guys like that out there.

At the same time, nothing makes me feel more confident towards my yearly volunteering at a girlscout camp than the knowledge that a number of people suspecting I'm a creepy pornsick stalker dude because I'm a guy they don't know. It certainly helps shut up that paranoid part of MY brain, that keeps going "Hey. Hey. Hey. All it takes is one false accusation or flipped out/crazy parent, and your life is basically ruined. HAVE FUN."


So on one hand, your women friends were being creeped on and stalked.

On the other hand, you don't want people to think you're a rapist.

So is the solution then that women should ignore or encourage creepy stalkers so that you can enjoy never having to worry about being viewed as a creepy stalker?

Please explain to me why a general push to educate people on, "Here is how not to be a rapist, and how not to appear to be a rapist when you don't mena to, and here is how to tell non rapists from rapists" is a solution not worth considering?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1053

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
"Here is how not to be a rapist, and how not to appear to be a rapist when you don't mena to, and here is how to tell non rapists from rapists"


Does seem like that would solve both problems, wouldn't it?
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6507

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cactuar wrote:
Can I just say, I find it upsetting the way some guys react to these issues and just fixate on rape like it's the only thing a woman has the right to want to avoid.

I once had a guy acquaintance who was making uncomfortable comments at me all the time, and at a point where for a group activity it had been suggested that I stay over at his house for scheduling issues, I expressed concern about it to my then-boyfriend and his reaction was like, "what's the problem, he won't do anything." As in anything physical, as in the comments that I'd already gotten didn't count as "anything."

His mind immediately jumped to a physical sexual assault, and if I wasn't worried about that then what was the problem?

Getting verbally creeped on is bad enough. Having non-violent violations of my personal space while getting verbally creeped on is bad enough. Getting followed around a store by some creepy asshole who "just wants to know my name" is bad enough. Getting shouted at when I won't play along and flirt is bad enough.

So the "just relax" cadre is right in that I don't actually feel rape per se is a huge worry on a daily basis but I resent the idea that I should just put up with all the OTHER stuff that happens because its not a big deal because it doesn't happen to be rape.

There's no textual evidence here that Nique is "scared of getting raped" when she walks down the street here. I usually am not either, but there's a whole world of other unpleasantness that you are well advised to be on guard for.

Just last weekend a cat calling guy tried to grab me by the arm as I walked past him. And that wasn't nearly the worst incident that weekend.

THANK YOU. I've been struggling with what's been bothering me this whole damned thread and here you just wrote it all out plain as day.

(Recently old dudes have gotten into the habit of stopping me while I'm on the sidewalk and demanding I shake their hand. Like, one dude 'pretended' to jump in front of my bike to get me to stop. Then there was that -other- guy who wouldn't let go of my hand. Like, I don't actually walk around a lot, this town is spread out in a way that driving really is the best way to get anywhere, the fact that I have multiple stories is pretty terrible.)
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
"Here is how not to be a rapist, and how not to appear to be a rapist when you don't mena to, and here is how to tell non rapists from rapists"


Does seem like that would solve both problems, wouldn't it?


It certainly would! But I guess we'd have to stop having fun to start that educational program, so...let's not do that.
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
other people have already demonstrated how your, uh, "argument" is rape apologism, which i note you have not tried to defend--probably because you know you can't, and have settled instead for mealy-mouthed denial. it depends entirely on blaming the victim, for not "realizing" that "the creepy pornsick stalker dude has so many qualifiers that there can't be that many around"--with the insinuation being that it's your own fault if you're worried about him.

accusation backed up. i don't know if you think you're being funny, but, spoiler alert: you're not. fuck off.


Your accusation is not backed up by saying that 'other people have already demonstrated' this. That is a lazy argumentum ad populam. Moreover, demonstrations are rarely deductive proofs; treating them as scientific axioms is misguided. This is dialectic, not dogma.

I believe you have lost track of the argument. I said that 'fewer people will answer the description' the more properties are connoted to a class. This was with respect to Mr. Ishida's phrase 'creepy pornsick stalker dudes'. Bringing rape into it - still less blaming the victim! - it is a distasteful fantasy on your part, not to mention a red herring.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
I can't say the paranoia's unjustified-a good handful of my female friends in college were stalked by one guy who seemed to take any act of kindness towards him as evidence the girl was in love with him. Then he'd enter stalker mode. (To the school's credit, they actually did a *lot*, including getting to the point that the head of the math department informed all teachers that he aws never, ever to be paired with women on group projects. They couldn't just outright kick him out, since he hadn't done anything *illegal*, just really goddamn creepy.) I'm sure there are lots of guys like that out there.

At the same time, nothing makes me feel more confident towards my yearly volunteering at a girlscout camp than the knowledge that a number of people suspecting I'm a creepy pornsick stalker dude because I'm a guy they don't know. It certainly helps shut up that paranoid part of MY brain, that keeps going "Hey. Hey. Hey. All it takes is one false accusation or flipped out/crazy parent, and your life is basically ruined. HAVE FUN."


So on one hand, your women friends were being creeped on and stalked.

On the other hand, you don't want people to think you're a rapist.

So is the solution then that women should ignore or encourage creepy stalkers so that you can enjoy never having to worry about being viewed as a creepy stalker?


Uh, no, the solution isn't that women should ignore or encourage creepy behavior. I'm... reaallllyyyyy not sure where you got that from in my post.

Perhaps I should in turn respond all offended as well? Can we play the "More offended than thou" game?

"I'm sorry, how dare I have the nerve to not want to be thought of as a child rapist. Truley, I am out of line in going "Damn, it sucks that we live in a society where, as a male who chooses to volunteer his time with young girls, I am automatically thought as a rapist."" That was out of line, clearly. How dare I have the audacity to speak in a comic thread.

TRULY, THIS IS A PRODUCTIVE RESPONSE.

Now getting back responding in a serious, not passive-agressive way.

Quote:
Please explain to me why a general push to educate people on, "Here is how not to be a rapist, and how not to appear to be a rapist when you don't mena to, and here is how to tell non rapists from rapists" is a solution not worth considering?[


I don't intend to try and explain this to you. Mainly because it's not a position I actually hold. WE SHOULD educate people on how not to be creepy, or how not to appear to be a rapist. We need to beat into people's heads that just because a girl is nice to you does not mean she is in love with you (.. I.. am not sure it would have helped in the case of the guy I mentioned, since there was, uh. A lot of other things wrong with him. Including him trying to get a teacher fired because she gave him a bad grade in the class. Thankfully, nothing came of it, which is good-she is the best goddamn math professor I'd ever had. She was friggen amazing, aaannnd I'm digressing sorry.)

Indeed, such education would benefit me/other guys as well, since it would help dispel the cultural/patriarchal myth that men cannot be nurturing, so any man that wants to spend time with children should be viewed with suspicion.

I'm really, truly baffled by how my post, in any way, made you think "Therefore we should just give up and women should do nothing and just get raped for ever and eeeeveeerrrrr and guys should get to be creepy to their heart's content." All I said was, effectively, "It sucks that such creepy behavior causes a negative stereotype of *all* men as a defensive reaction." And it *DOES* suck. The solution, of course, is not "Don't be paranoid", but to attack the *root* of the behavior: The creepy behavior *itself*.

Seriously, the fuck?
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
God im tired of you assholes.


That's kind of vague, isn't it? Which ones?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
other people have already demonstrated how your, uh, "argument" is rape apologism, which i note you have not tried to defend--probably because you know you can't, and have settled instead for mealy-mouthed denial. it depends entirely on blaming the victim, for not "realizing" that "the creepy pornsick stalker dude has so many qualifiers that there can't be that many around"--with the insinuation being that it's your own fault if you're worried about him.

accusation backed up. i don't know if you think you're being funny, but, spoiler alert: you're not. fuck off.


Your accusation is not backed up by saying that 'other people have already demonstrated' this. That is a lazy argumentum ad populam. Moreover, demonstrations are rarely deductive proofs; treating them as scientific axioms is misguided. This is dialectic, not dogma.


au contraire, my accusation is backed up by what they said, and i will once again note that you are still ducking what they said.

now, if i said that my accusation was backed up by the fact that they said it, rather than what it is they said, that would be argumentum ad populam. you should probably learn what these fallacies are before you go spouting about them!
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
au contraire, my accusation is backed up by what they said, and i will once again note that you are still ducking what they said.

now, if i said that my accusation was backed up by the fact that they said it, rather than what it is they said, that would be argumentum ad populam. you should probably learn what these fallacies are before you go spouting about them!


What 'they' said? Would you care to put it in your own words? I replied both to the person you call 'them' (the rest merely used sarcasm, rather than arguments with, you know, support for each claim, and a lack of wild paraphrase), and to you. I had thought you committed an argumentam ad populam, for it seemed to me that you appealed to demonstrations made by 'other people', as though the mere fact that a number of people (with whom you appear to identify closely) had sough to prove a thing, made it so. You're certainly entitled to disagree by insisting you had no such intention.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what, that you missed the point? or rather, you "missed" the point? that your constant stressing that "well there are so many qualifications there can't possibly be that many creepy pornsick stalker dudes" is in fact a variation of blaming the victim, precisely because it puts the onus on the victim for worrying about "something so rare"? that you're just reiterating Rothide's "it's going to happen anyway so why worry about it" point? that what "it" is, in fact, is being creeped on and having your personal space violated, up to and including getting raped? that you're dodging all that by trying to be cute and whimpering about properties and classes? that--ironically, considering it was you who accused Monkey of doing the same thing--you ignored arguments against your position just because of the way they looked? just as, i'm sure, you'll ignore this one in favor of some word you think you can twist and play a meaningless word game for the sole purpose of avoiding the real point of discussion? that you will desperately try to avoid the real point of discussion because you have nothing of worth to say about it? that either way you'll deny all of this rather than actually deal with it, just like you ignored everyone else when they said the same things i'm saying now?

there, i made every single one of your further posts for you. you are unnecessary now.

since you lack the good faith necessary to actually look at that for yourself, i'm sure you will find a way to conveniently fail to miss this point too. so just cut to the chase and fuck off.
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