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2013-07-07 Tomboy
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3127

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Actually a boy playing with a doll would be "behaving like a girl", because it's heavily discouraged.


And that's sexist, isn't it?
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3127

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Ronald wrote:
Mercian wrote:
The doll seems pretty much to imply 'behave like a girl' to me.


So if a boy wanted to play with a doll, he'd be "behaving like a girl"?

You can't have it both ways. If playing with a doll is a gender-neutral activity for a boy, it's no less so for a girl.

A parent's motivation for wanting a child to play with a doll, well, that's something else entirely.

I think it's a bit premature to accuse Peb-Mom of anything, that's all I'm saying in this context.


That's because you seem unable to grasp the simplest of social cues Ronald.


Or unwilling to make sweeping judgments based on one strip.

Basing character analyses on the very first thing one sees someone do doesn't seem very constructive to me.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This comic gave me the biggest happy.

Then I read the comments.

Holy hell, guys? Seriously, WTF?

Get lost and let me have my happy!

Pebbles is still connected to her pre-BOMf self! And things that support a lot of previous speculation as to her having harbored rage and a suppressed self that the BOMF brought out and exaggerated, rather than just erasing her old personality. There is SO much there, and all you can see is, "ugh, mor feminism."

I agree that this makes her and Lil'E quite the pair, neither one being what their parent wanted them to be, or what they were "supposed" to be because of the bodies they were born into.

Come, ON, at least have some sort of compassion for how much that sucks.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Ronald wrote:
Mercian wrote:
The doll seems pretty much to imply 'behave like a girl' to me.


So if a boy wanted to play with a doll, he'd be "behaving like a girl"?

You can't have it both ways. If playing with a doll is a gender-neutral activity for a boy, it's no less so for a girl.

A parent's motivation for wanting a child to play with a doll, well, that's something else entirely.

I think it's a bit premature to accuse Peb-Mom of anything, that's all I'm saying in this context.



That's because you seem unable to grasp the simplest of social cues Ronald.


Or unwilling to make sweeping judgments based on one strip.

Basing character analyses on the very first thing one sees someone do doesn't seem very constructive to me.


You do that all the time, you're just irritated with the feminism themes and smart enough to realize the abuse you'd recieve for complaining about it at this point.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3127

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
you're just irritated with the feminism themes


No, I'm not. I don't think I've ever said anything to the effect that I was, and if I did, it was in regard to a particular strip, not to the overall theme.

I'm a feminist. In a Pro-Choice Forum I used to frequent (where I used a gender-neutral screenname, not my first name, as I do here), I was regularly mistaken for a female commentator, because my perspective was perceived as that sympatico with most of the pro-choicers, most of whom were women and feminists. I still take a bit of pride in that. Smile
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
you're just irritated with the feminism themes


No, I'm not. I don't think I've ever said anything to the effect that I was, and if I did, it was in regard to a particular strip, not to the overall theme.

I'm a feminist. In a Pro-Choice Forum I used to frequent (where I used a gender-neutral screenname, not my first name, as I do here), I was regularly mistaken for a female commentator, because my perspective was perceived as that sympatico with most of the pro-choicers, most of whom were women and feminists. I still take a bit of pride in that. Smile


I have a black gay jewish friend too.
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Otoh



Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 673
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That doll's house has the worst feng shui ever, done deliberately I'm sure, toilet directly above the cooker - Ew!
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6040
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Mercian wrote:
The doll seems pretty much to imply 'behave like a girl' to me.


So if a boy wanted to play with a doll, he'd be "behaving like a girl"?

You can't have it both ways. If playing with a doll is a gender-neutral activity for a boy, it's no less so for a girl.


um...it's not?

i mean, i'm not sure where you grew up, but where i grew up, a boy who would get caught playing with a doll would probably be made fun of, or at the very least, regarded as strange. that's why the toys that are like dolls but intended for boys get called "action figures" instead. to differentiate them from dolls.

taking away a little girl's toy sword and giving her a doll to play with seems pretty unambiguous to me.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3286
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Ronald wrote:
Mercian wrote:
The doll seems pretty much to imply 'behave like a girl' to me.


So if a boy wanted to play with a doll, he'd be "behaving like a girl"?

You can't have it both ways. If playing with a doll is a gender-neutral activity for a boy, it's no less so for a girl.


um...it's not?

i mean, i'm not sure where you grew up, but where i grew up, a boy who would get caught playing with a doll would probably be made fun of, or at the very least, regarded as strange. that's why the toys that are like dolls but intended for boys get called "action figures" instead. to differentiate them from dolls.

taking away a little girl's toy sword and giving her a doll to play with seems pretty unambiguous to me.


One of the things trans women used to have to say to counselors was, "When I was a kid, I played with dolls." It was required, otherwise they weren't considered trans. Nevermind that many young kids wouldn't dare ask a parent for a toy many consider inappropriate for little kids.

I also fail to see why recognizing a general expectation is supposed to be the same as saying that's the way it should be. My saying, "A shit ton of customers at the fabric stores I've worked at obsessively color coded all the gifts they made for children" doesn't mean I agree with it or that I approve of it. It would be ludicrous to say, "No one ever codes things for gender, especially not for kids" because it is still a huge problem.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3286
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
you're just irritated with the feminism themes


No, I'm not. I don't think I've ever said anything to the effect that I was, and if I did, it was in regard to a particular strip, not to the overall theme.

I'm a feminist. In a Pro-Choice Forum I used to frequent (where I used a gender-neutral screenname, not my first name, as I do here), I was regularly mistaken for a female commentator, because my perspective was perceived as that sympatico with most of the pro-choicers, most of whom were women and feminists. I still take a bit of pride in that. Smile


Being mistaken for a feminist would be a bigger feat, and you've not been mistaken for one here.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2675
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Actually a boy playing with a doll would be "behaving like a girl", because it's heavily discouraged.


And that's sexist, isn't it?


Of course. But you know, DUH. Thatīs the whole point of the comic. Rigid gender roles are bad. People enforcing them is a bad thing.
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Ricia



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, Pebbles I sympathize so much. My mom tried to do that with me. I was such a tomboy and my mom would constantly tell me "You're a girl." Thankfully she was a single mom with a ton of kids so she didn't have the time to shove me in dresses. It made me rebel too much though and I became ashamed of anything "girly" I liked and hid it. I thought if I showed any sign of femininity I would have to give up all my masculinity cause you could only be one or the other right? The gender bias is dangerous and damaging and it make me despise myself for years. Too much information and er...I know nobody reads my posts so rather pointless too. Still so much sympathy for Pebbles here for not being able to express herself just as she wants to express herself. I'm glad she's happy now. For the record, my mother is a good woman who meant well. I don't think Pebble's mom was a bad person either. Ignorant maybe but most likely not bad.
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 472
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, US

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Actually a boy playing with a doll would be "behaving like a girl", because it's heavily discouraged.

I have never seen anyone consider a (baby)doll a gender-neutral toy.


Well, some have tried to encourage that, but it hasn't taken off so far. (Does anyone but me remember "Free To Be You And Me"?)
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
Ronald wrote:
Mercian wrote:
The doll seems pretty much to imply 'behave like a girl' to me.


So if a boy wanted to play with a doll, he'd be "behaving like a girl"?

You can't have it both ways. If playing with a doll is a gender-neutral activity for a boy, it's no less so for a girl.


um...it's not?

i mean, i'm not sure where you grew up, but where i grew up, a boy who would get caught playing with a doll would probably be made fun of, or at the very least, regarded as strange. that's why the toys that are like dolls but intended for boys get called "action figures" instead. to differentiate them from dolls.

taking away a little girl's toy sword and giving her a doll to play with seems pretty unambiguous to me.


One of the things trans women used to have to say to counselors was, "When I was a kid, I played with dolls." It was required, otherwise they weren't considered trans. Nevermind that many young kids wouldn't dare ask a parent for a toy many consider inappropriate for little kids.

I also fail to see why recognizing a general expectation is supposed to be the same as saying that's the way it should be. My saying, "A shit ton of customers at the fabric stores I've worked at obsessively color coded all the gifts they made for children" doesn't mean I agree with it or that I approve of it. It would be ludicrous to say, "No one ever codes things for gender, especially not for kids" because it is still a huge problem.


This. It never ceases to amaze me how readily some people will confuse awareness of a problem with the problem itself.
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 472
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, US

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(is now catching up on the entire history of Pebbles)
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