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2013-07-07 Tomboy
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3456

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
You decline to recognize that other people believe in and enforce that stereotype. If you decide the world is the way it should be rather than the way it is, you by necessity must ignore actual problems. And when people say, "No, really, there's this problem with gender norms being enforced on kids via teir toys" and you say in response, "It's sexist to say that, because this toy you label as a girl toy is gender neutral," then you refuse to acknowledge the problem that actually exists.


Wow, I had no idea that I said any of that. I thought I was just saying it was premature to make presumptions about the motivations and mindset of a single character. How thoughtful of you to tell me what I really said.

Can't wait to find out what I just said there.
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Mercian



Joined: 27 Feb 2013
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
You decline to recognize that other people believe in and enforce that stereotype. If you decide the world is the way it should be rather than the way it is, you by necessity must ignore actual problems. And when people say, "No, really, there's this problem with gender norms being enforced on kids via teir toys" and you say in response, "It's sexist to say that, because this toy you label as a girl toy is gender neutral," then you refuse to acknowledge the problem that actually exists.


Wow, I had no idea that I said any of that. I thought I was just saying it was premature to make presumptions about the motivations and mindset of a single character. How thoughtful of you to tell me what I really said.

Can't wait to find out what I just said there.


If Pebbles mum was a recurring character, with a backstory and a story arc of her own, I'd agree that it was premature to read too much into her behaviour, because there was a good chance we'd find out more about her. But this is Pebbles' story, and things like not showing her mother's face suggests to me that we're meant to focus on the actions and their impact on Pebbles, not look for deeper meaning behind her mother's behaviour.

Without dialogue, we have to go on visual cues, and the simplest interpretation (in the context of a world where there are still 'girl toys' and 'boy toys', even though there shouldn't be) is that Pebbles is being handed the doll to encourage her to fit the gender norm of a girl. Tat specifically chose to put a doll in there, rather than another 'quiet play' item like a book or a puzzle. Why would he do that, if not as shorthand for 'mother wants Pebbles to act like a (conventional patriarchy-approved) girl'?
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3352

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because then it has feminist overtones and those make Ronald uncomfortable.

You can tell they do by how hard he tries to distract any discussion of them.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3456

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercian wrote:
Without dialogue, we have to go on visual cues, and the simplest interpretation


Why should anybody buy into the simplest interpretation? Who cares about the simplest interpretation?

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Because then it has feminist overtones and those make Ronald uncomfortable.

You can tell they do by how hard he tries to distract any discussion of them.


Feminist overtones don't make me uncomfortable. I have, in several threads, complimented and defended feminist overtones. I am a huge fan of Monique and the Sisterhood. I have pointed out fallacies from our little colony of misogynists again and again.

Apparently none of that matters compared to this single dubious moment, though. Oh well. I'll be going, then. I'm not so desperate for company that I'll stay where people tell lies about me.
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enchantedsleeper



Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 202
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it interesting how Hell (or D-Man? I'm not sure specifically who controls those big screens) chose to show Pebbles her past in this way and at this moment in time. You could argue they're trying to distract her from her mission to rescue L'il E, but wouldn't reminding Pebbles of her tomboy childhood and the way she was forced into a more rigid gender role run counter to what D-Man (and by extension, the Patriarchy) is trying to do with all women? Why would he/they run the risk of empowering Pebbles by reminding her of who she truly wanted to be?
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3352

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Mercian wrote:
Without dialogue, we have to go on visual cues, and the simplest interpretation


Why should anybody buy into the simplest interpretation? Who cares about the simplest interpretation?

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Because then it has feminist overtones and those make Ronald uncomfortable.

You can tell they do by how hard he tries to distract any discussion of them.


Feminist overtones don't make me uncomfortable. I have, in several threads, complimented and defended feminist overtones. I am a huge fan of Monique and the Sisterhood. I have pointed out fallacies from our little colony of misogynists again and again.

Apparently none of that matters compared to this single dubious moment, though. Oh well. I'll be going, then. I'm not so desperate for company that I'll stay where people tell lies about me.


YAY!
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Mercian



Joined: 27 Feb 2013
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Mercian wrote:
Without dialogue, we have to go on visual cues, and the simplest interpretation


Why should anybody buy into the simplest interpretation? Who cares about the simplest interpretation?


Why should anybody discount the simplest explanation out of hand? For all we know, Pebbles mother has the head of a three-eyed goat, but she probably doesn't. I can't see it, but I am making an assumption, based on the context, that she will have a human head. I am making an assumption, based on the context of the strip, that the doll is shorthand for an accepted gender role. It doesn't require deep analysis, or leaps of faith.

Tat's telling a story, and effective storytelling shouldn't require you to decode every panel.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1113

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercian wrote:
Tat's telling a story, and effective storytelling shouldn't require you to decode every panel.

Well, a panel-by-panel analysis is pretty much what happened with the original Fembot Sunday strip. It was quite interesting.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Because you've been around for less than five months and have made only twelve posts so far, so as likely as not, you have no idea what you're talking about, either.


Ronald wrote:
Seriously, I decline to jump to conclusions about a new character -- I decline to buy into a stereotype -- and that somehow qualifies as complaining about feminism? WTH?


*snicker*
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enchantedsleeper wrote:
I find it interesting how Hell (or D-Man? I'm not sure specifically who controls those big screens) chose to show Pebbles her past in this way and at this moment in time. You could argue they're trying to distract her from her mission to rescue L'il E, but wouldn't reminding Pebbles of her tomboy childhood and the way she was forced into a more rigid gender role run counter to what D-Man (and by extension, the Patriarchy) is trying to do with all women? Why would he/they run the risk of empowering Pebbles by reminding her of who she truly wanted to be?


The voice of "shoulds" drilled into you can be powerful, even against your own desires.
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blink



Joined: 07 Jul 2013
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moor wrote:
Okay, so I'm going to ignore all the previous comments and say that I really liked this comic -- I really like Pebbles' character, but once Lil'E's redemption arc started, I started to feel like Pebbles was sort of being just a Manic Pixie for him. I'm sure it's up for discussion how much she actually is/was, but I'm still glad that we're seeing her develop as her own character, as opposed to helping develop Lil'E's.

(Okay, now you call yell at me for ignoring all the previous comments.)


I like your version of the thread! This strip was adorable.

http://ninja.lhost.de/wiki/index.php/2011-03-30_Bomf implies that bomfing doesn't fundamentally change someone; it just lets out the pieces of themselves they don't think are "good". When Pebble got bomf'ed she redeveloped her protective, creative and inquisitive nature; it is so sad that that was what she considered to be "evil" about herself.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 938
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercian wrote:
Ronald wrote:
Mercian wrote:
The doll seems pretty much to imply 'behave like a girl' to me.


So if a boy wanted to play with a doll, he'd be "behaving like a girl"?



No, Ronald, a boy playing with a doll is fine, as is a girl playing with trucks, or a genderfluid child playing with a shaved weasel in a hat.



After being on holiday without internet for two weeks and catching up I had to quote this to tell you it made me honk with laughter in a completely undignified way.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2904
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:

After being on holiday without internet for two weeks and catching up I had to quote this to tell you it made me honk with laughter in a completely undignified way.


Now I can't help picture you as a duck. In a sweater.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
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Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Ennis wrote:

After being on holiday without internet for two weeks and catching up I had to quote this to tell you it made me honk with laughter in a completely undignified way.


Now I can't help picture you as a duck. In a sweater.


I don't think I actually own a sweater (or as we call in Australia, a jumper). Sadly I also don't have a sweater vest (which oddly enough is not called a jumper vest here) so my fashion nerdiness isn't quite as high as it could be. Oh well, I'll just have to stick with bow ties for now.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2904
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Ennis wrote:

After being on holiday without internet for two weeks and catching up I had to quote this to tell you it made me honk with laughter in a completely undignified way.


Now I can't help picture you as a duck. In a sweater.


I don't think I actually own a sweater (or as we call in Australia, a jumper). Sadly I also don't have a sweater vest (which oddly enough is not called a jumper vest here) so my fashion nerdiness isn't quite as high as it could be. Oh well, I'll just have to stick with bow ties for now.


Now I want a jumper vest. Dang you Ennis.
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