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Explain women only spaces to me.
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10222
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They do in the ones I've been in. Not like directly squatting on the floor, but there is resulting urine on the floor.

It's been explained to me that because the seats are so filthy women hover rather than sit, this apparently reduces accuracy which results in filthy seats and over the course of the day it builds up.

Then there IS the intentional places, because Baltimore is a sad, sad wasteland of depravity and shame.

Bathrooms are foul foul places for both genders.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3147
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've cleaned both, and both are ad. I have found men's rooms tend to be renovated less, so they are soaked with old smells and look less clean because old floors and walls look dirty no matter how you scrub them.

I attest to the hovering. There ought to be lessons in proper toilet hovering.
Or we could all go to squat toilets.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10878
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
mouse wrote:
wait, all of this is because you can't tell the difference between women as a group and an individual woman?


In the rhetoric of feminism I can't:

"Women are strong and equal to men. You can not restrict their access just because of their gender."
"Women need safe places away from men because the are afraid and vulnerable. There must be some women only place that men can't go."


Believing in equality does not mean believing everyone is the same. Or that the world is actually at the moment equal.

It shouldn't be the case that women need safe places but it sadly is. You can both work towards a world where women will no longer have a need for women only places while also working for women only spaces for the moment.
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eureka00



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 1990
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the couches in bathrooms I see are in department stores. Most other places have gone to the family bathroom or seperate breastfeeding room instead of the couch in the women's room.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To let everyone know and believe that women are strong and equal to men is what we WANT.

To give women safe spaces because they are vurnerable is what we currently NEED.

I wish we didn't NEED safe spaces but currently we do, because not everyone believes women are as strong and equal as men.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still don't think strong has any relationship to being equal. we should be equal because we are all human beings. some of us are strong, some of us are weak, physically, morally, or whatever way you want to put it. yes, it should be recognized that women can be strong, in many ways - but that's a different thing. it's like saying "women are good at math and equal to men". some are, and some aren't. (good at math.)
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my answer to the whole thing is that womens only spaces are generally a good idea for the same reason why women's only gyms are a good idea.

protected classes, external issues with no inflicted-on-male analogues, and strict scrutiny also play in if you want to talk about it as a legal issue.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread was a disappointment. He kept talking about logical definitions and then just as I posted he abandoned ship. Not that I need to spend more time arguing on the Internet, and I guess that's what I get for showing up late.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plus it turns out his women-only space was some odd thing celebrating menstruation. that's pretty undeniably a women-only thing; i'm not sure why a guy would feel it was sexist that it didn't include him. some things are definitely limited to one gender or the other by biology; acknowledging that is hardly sexist. why would someone think it was? does he really want someone to figure out a way to do pap smears on men, just so they wouldn't be excluded from this women-only activity?

because i'm telling you right now, feminist though i am, i am _not_ going to start insisting on my equal right to a digital rectal exam.
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Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't abandon ship I just really had nothing more to say. The distinction between the individual and the group seemed to be the core of the rational. It makes sense to me.

Like I said I don't have much investment in women only whatever. I mentioned the red tent because that was the only one I have ever saw. I also found the concept that men can not be full fledged feminists a contradiction. I don't like hypocrisy. It sets me on edge. But I resolved it in the general sense so I'm good now.

I find that the arguments on this board don't really get to the core or anything. It stays on a very surface level of rhetoric. Basically I want to talk about the Platonic form of the chair and the board wants to talk about it's color. So we talk past each other a it gets frustrating for all. I say "are all chairs are connected?" you say "you fucking moron that ones red and this one is blue".

I also find the narrative of "women need special safety" odd. Personally I would justify women only spaces with the scientific data that show subtle changes in group dynamic in women only groups. Honestly I don't think your argument is going to convince many people because it portrays women as broken and men as monsters. The fact that you keep on going back to that kind of make it sound like you have a pretty low opinion of women in general. Not that I am saying this is your actual opinion it's just how it comes across.

I think my argument is better for the practice. But that is just a mater of opinion.

I am also just tired of the juvenile name calling. I made an appeal to you better nature and got your worst.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perhaps you should've tried coming in arguing in good faith, then.

on the other hand if you think you're actually getting anywhere by talking about anything like Platonic forms then i can see why the "logic center of your brain" does a lot of crying.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
I am also just tired of the juvenile name calling. I made an appeal to you better nature and got your worst.

It's comments like this that make me really wonder why people feel the need to start posting in a place they obviously know nothing about.

Like. I get that name calling is pretty silly... but if you expected something else, you simply haven't been paying attention.

It's pretty cute how you think this is our worst, though. I'd say 'endearing' but, well, it's not that.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't think anyone here has ever said men can't be full-fledged feminists. there are certainly a number of men on this board that have, in my opinion, shown themselves to be such.

and i am genuinely confused at your apparent inability to understand "women need special safety". do you really not know anything about incidences of rape by gender? about the physical risk women with abusive partners have? i can accept the argument that men also can be the abused partner, and i think it only fair that men be provided with similar shelters, which should be men-only if that is what makes them feel safe. part of getting a truly equal society is to accept that both sexes can be at risk. but that doesn't mean all the shelters need to be gender-inclusive, just that the system of shelters should be so.

maybe you think every woman thinks it necessary to spend all of her time in women-only safe spaces? because actually, very few women (at least in the u.s.) actually need or use such spaces. really, only the ones who have an immediate need for them - women who are in abusive relationships, who have been threatened by their partners. millions of women are in relationships where they feel completely safe with their partners; millions more are not in relationships, and so their 'safe space' is their own home - you would not deny that everyone has the right to make their own home safe, and can determine who they chose to let in, would you? how much time do you think the average woman spends, or wants to spend, in a designated women-only safe space?

maybe i should turn it around - what is your basis for believing that women are at no greater risk of physical harm than men?

sorry not to put this in the form of a platonic dialog; i'm a scientist, not a philosopher. and i don't think people are furniture.
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TIAB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you knew about the menstruation tents before making this thread, but couldn't figure out why that would be a women-only space?

So where's the outrage that women's bathrooms don't have urinals?

If you're of the opinion that you started this thread in good faith, the evidence doesn't seem to support that and should more than explain the general response that you received.
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Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Samsally"]
Drowemos wrote:

It's pretty cute how you think this is our worst, though. I'd say 'endearing' but, well, it's not that.


Touche. Covering yourself in steaks and then complaining that you were not treated civilly in your walk through the lions den does lack a certain level of self-awareness. It was dumb of me to expect anything else. Still it kind of wears me out after a while.

Now on the topic of victim hood the problem with that line of argument is everyone is a victim of something.

As a kid I was beat up pretty badly by an older boy who was Asian. Do I have the right to create Asian free spaces? I went to the hospital. It was quite traumatic. Under the victimhood argument I should be able to put a No Asians Allow sign up on a space I set up in the park, right?

No, I can't, because that is discriminatory. I could refuse to let Jackie Chan into my space. I can make a case by case decision but can't make a blanket statement.

So then here you have two people how have been victimized. One a man another a women. In one case you do the discriminatory thing and set up the safe space in the other you deny the safe space because it is discriminatory. It is a double standard. The only way you can justify it is by claiming the woman is different from the man in being a victim. That she is in some way more fragile.

And I can cut the world in ways where the number of male victims is greater than the number of female victims of abuse so it 's not the quantity. For example to people who've encountered terrorism get to make and Arab free space?

The argument further disintegrates when you start talking about cross dressers and transsexuals. If the space is for safety only then you can not allow transsexuals or cross-dresser in because they could still make the victimized woman feel unsafe. Under this logic you are force to turn them away despite their self identification because it's what victim feels that maters.

And what about lesbians. Couldn't a victim of sexual abuse feel uncomfortable around anyone who would be sexual attracted to them. You would have to ban all lesbians because remember we are making a blanket statement here. It's not a case by case judgement its anything that could cause discomfort.

On the other side what about gay men. Should they be allowed into the space due to their lack of interest in women. Or is appearing to be male the problem. Does that mean no masculine looking women?

Furthermore what if none of the women in the space has been abused? How is the existence of the space justified then? By all right if at any time their is no abused women in a women only space it would need to be opened up to men because the rational for it gone. You would need a token abused women in the space at all times. Which would be weird.

Using victimhood as the core rational causes the argument to disintegrate. Supporting victims can be a benefit but it can't be the reason.

So let's back up and use a different meaning of the word "safe". When I go out with drink with coworkers I don't invite my boss because it makes everyone feel more "safe". My boss is a great guy and no one is afraid of him. But the conversation is just more free when he is not around. We don't feel like we have to watch ourselves. No one has to be a victim in this scenario no one has to be weak.

So why do women need such spaces? Why shut down the men's clubs and then create women's clubs? The best argument women's have different brains. Not weaker brains, mind you, but brains that are much more cued in to social structure. There is more psychological benefit for a normal healthy woman than a normal healthy man. And in the fact that women as a group are at a slight social disadvantage in the world and the woman only space is a way to level the playing-field.

Men's clubs provided no psychological benefit and maintained an unfair social structure.
Women's clubs provide profound psychological benefit and help to create a fairer social structure.

This argument is one that comes from a place of strength instead of weakness. It talks about women's natural talents instead of their venerability. It is more open and inclusive that a space set up around fear.

We are not talking about support groups here after all. Obviously an abuse support group has to be restrictive but my understanding or a woman's space is that it is for all women. You don't need to be fearful and broken to enter.

Frankly I feel it is a better argument.

But if you want to use yours, you feel yours is stronger. Fine.

@TIAB - Why are you comparing menstruation tents to urinals? Are you claiming that women in the tents drop their pants a spray blood everywhere? I don't think they work that way. And if they do... Yuck.

On the broader note of good faith I had a question about the logical constancy of certain things. I started the thread got my answer and left. Then people complained that I had left. So I came back and explained why I left.

Now I am leaving again because I really have nothing else I want to say. I can't really imagine what agenda I would have by posting this thread anyway. What do you think I am trying to do? Because currently I am accomplishing a whole lot of nothing.
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