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2013-07-10: Defective 2
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3352

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jody wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Because gibson is a tool


I'm glad somebody else said it.


It's what im here for.
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Thenadathor



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you detach the ethical debate and just look at enforcement pragmatically, an anti-abortion position becomes laughably impractical.

Ask the average anti-abortion person this question, and I would say 70% of the time it will plant a seed which will unravel their dogma and turn them pro-abortion:

"In a state where abortions are illegal, what should happen to a woman as the legal punishment when she gets an abortion illegally?"

I mean the low-hanging fruit is that illegal abortions are risker, therefore be pro-abortion, women should have agency over their bodies, therefore be pro-abortion, but the kicker that actually wedges these people over tends to be trying to get them to tell you what sort of punishment to dole out to those who get illegal abortions. A good chunk of them, when faced with that question, physically cant offer a fine or jailtime with a straight face, AKA WHAT YOU DO WHEN A CRIME IS COMMITTED. therefore, while they wish people didn't get abortions, they dont actually, deep down, view the act as something that should be illegal. At least, I think a "wedge issue" sized chunk of em feel that way.
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Thenadathor



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to clarify, im sure there are people out there who would gladly send women to jail for getting unsafe, illegal abortions even when they are the only available options.

those people can go fuck themselves.
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LadySunami



Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 187
Location: Elsewhere

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
well, and not just kids. i know a number of married couples who either a) want kids, but not right now, and not by the bushel or b) have decided that they really don't want kids. telling them just not to have sex is .... not real useful.

i heard a woman in a public meeting say something like "sex is not like drugs. we don't ever want them to use drugs, but we do want them to have sex." sexual health (of which birth control is a part) is a life skill.

I assume if we give them the information as kids they won't suddenly forget upon adulthood. At least I hope not.

There are married asexuals that are fine with abstinence. Not saying there are very many of them, but if a heteroromanic asexual couple wants to be married without having sex, that's cool too. I'd love to find a heteroromanic asexual guy. I'm a big fan of kisses and cuddles, but not really the rest of it. That being said, if I ever fall for a sexual guy, I'm not going to demand abstinence after marriage. As long as he respects me, I'd be more then willing to compromise.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6184
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, if your motive for meddling in women's abortion business is to make sure that they can't abort pregnancies, so that pregnancy functions as a "punishment" for engaging in sexual activity, because your motive is to police women's sexuality, then you wouldn't really be a hypocrite to support abstinence-only education and stuff. in fact, it'd be entirely consistent with your values.

of course, your values would be disgusting and horrid. but at least you wouldn't be a hypocrite!

and that's important, because keeping women from being sexual agents in their own right just like men get to do is an important piece of the great big anti-choice puzzle. so pointing out the "hypocrisy" of those people for both opposing abortion and supporting only abstinence-only sex ed doesn't really work, because they're not being hypocrites.

they're just being idiots.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
if you detach the ethical debate and just look at enforcement pragmatically, an anti-abortion position becomes laughably impractical.

Ask the average anti-abortion person this question, and I would say 70% of the time it will plant a seed which will unravel their dogma and turn them pro-abortion:

"In a state where abortions are illegal, what should happen to a woman as the legal punishment when she gets an abortion illegally?"

I mean the low-hanging fruit is that illegal abortions are risker, therefore be pro-abortion, women should have agency over their bodies, therefore be pro-abortion, but the kicker that actually wedges these people over tends to be trying to get them to tell you what sort of punishment to dole out to those who get illegal abortions. A good chunk of them, when faced with that question, physically cant offer a fine or jailtime with a straight face, AKA WHAT YOU DO WHEN A CRIME IS COMMITTED. therefore, while they wish people didn't get abortions, they dont actually, deep down, view the act as something that should be illegal. At least, I think a "wedge issue" sized chunk of em feel that way.


A lot of decent people, yes. Unfortunately, we've had more than enough proof in recent years that a not-insignificant section of the population that matters, aka., those in power to make and enforce laws, would happily send women to jail, not just for abortions, but for miscarriages too.

Fortunately, sanity eventually prevailed in court, (and the law was open enough to allow it,) but only just last year there was a woman in Idaho who bought drugs for a medical abortion online was put through legal and personal hell.

It was a pretty important case, though, because there was no intermediary doctor, which is who the segment you're talking about tends to go after. But when doctors won't and can't do it, and are not there to scapegoat, the ugliness still remains.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/16/nation/la-na-idaho-abortion-20120617
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9674

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Because gibson is a tool


I met him after a book signing once, he didn't seem so bad. I .. oh
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