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2013-07-18: The White Matrix
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
You didn't ask me anything, mere one. You asked ShadowCell. And you did not ask for his "understanding" or personal take, you just asked a quiz-style question of him in some snob-nosed attempt to play professor.


So I did. I was simultaneously replying to your post in another thread, and got you two confused.

If asking someone to explain their definitions of things is to play professor, then professorial roleplay is a surprisingly everyday occurrence.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1043

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
Rune wrote:
You didn't ask me anything, mere one. You asked ShadowCell. And you did not ask for his "understanding" or personal take, you just asked a quiz-style question of him in some snob-nosed attempt to play professor.


So I did. I was simultaneously replying to your post in another thread, and got you two confused.

If asking someone to explain their definitions of things is to play professor, then professorial roleplay is a surprisingly everyday occurrence.


Only in your own personal fantasy universe where your phrasing and framing aren't pompously bizarre and hollowly condescending.
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Only in your own personal fantasy universe where your phrasing and framing aren't pompously bizarre and hollowly condescending.


I believe I said "Are you saying that a thought experiment and a hypothesis are perfectly identical? Your position seems unclear."

If you consider that "pompously bizarre and hollowly condescending", your standards are strange to me. How would you have phrased it, in your normal universe?
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as a Certified Brown Person(tm) just to chime in, In my personal opinion, if you wanted to come across as actually interested in the opinions of others with different life perspectives than you, you failed.

I am unable to connect the kinds of questions you were asking with your stated goals. I am forced to reiterate Samsally and ask, what is your point?

How was your ridiculous hypothetical supposed to lead to a perspective on anything but the fantasy land you thought up for the sake of inventing a situation in which it would be 'OK' to do race-face?



**And as a side note on terminology because I find it needs to be confirmed sometimes, PoC, or Person/People of Color does not mean just black people. It means everyone who isn't white, and was coined to avoid using a phrase with a built in negative, i.e. non-white, which linguistically assumes that whiteness is the norm. It is also not the same as using the word "colored," which is bad and you shouldn't do it. I'm pretty sure everyone here knew that last bit, but I don't like to assume.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blackbooks wrote:
Rules of how to discuss things politely


Suum cuique. Not everyone wants to argue politely.
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Last edited by Istancow on Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10593
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
Rune wrote:
You didn't ask me anything, mere one. You asked ShadowCell. And you did not ask for his "understanding" or personal take, you just asked a quiz-style question of him in some snob-nosed attempt to play professor.


So I did. I was simultaneously replying to your post in another thread, and got you two confused.

If asking someone to explain their definitions of things is to play professor, then professorial roleplay is a surprisingly everyday occurrence.

It's interesting how so often your posts just creep further and further from the original point.
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Mercian



Joined: 27 Feb 2013
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cactuar wrote:


**And as a side note on terminology because I find it needs to be confirmed sometimes, PoC, or Person/People of Color does not mean just black people. It means everyone who isn't white, and was coined to avoid using a phrase with a built in negative, i.e. non-white, which linguistically assumes that whiteness is the norm. It is also not the same as using the word "colored," which is bad and you shouldn't do it. I'm pretty sure everyone here knew that last bit, but I don't like to assume.


Thanks for this - I wasn't aware (about the PoC bit - I do know better than to say 'coloured').
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Flashbullzeye



Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cactuar wrote:
How was your ridiculous hypothetical supposed to lead to a perspective on anything but the fantasy land you thought up for the sake of inventing a situation in which it would be 'OK' to do race-face?


Whether the hypothetical was ridiculous or not has no bearing on the question. And the purpose of the hypothetical wasn't to invent a situation in which it would be 'OK' to do race-face. It was to say - given that these problems in our societal history (and let's be honest, present too) exist and we've all acknowledged them and understand them and why it's completely wrong - moving beyond those reasons, is there any OTHER reason it would be wrong to put on race-face?

Once again, my mind works in hypotheticals, so that was the way it came out and I didn't really feel like refining it for awhile and boiling it down into a specific question. But everyone here seems focused on the way I originally asked it instead of the countless times I've tried to clarify. Normally I could do this all night and point out how most of the people here have beat around the bush without actually trying to answer it, but this is like banging my head against a brick wall and I'm starting to get a headache. So let's try it this way:

Would any people of color here on this forum care to chime in and educate an ignorant, privileged, white male who's seeking other people's perspectives so he can expand his own? Out of sheer, morbid curiosity (and not to diminish the horrific way it was done in the past and how it's completely insensitive to use today because of that past) besides the history of use in minstrel shows to humiliate people of color, is there any other reason that the use of "race-face" make-up would be found intrinsically offensive?
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, now you're just being an ass. You fail to communicate your meaning effectively, get mad when no one understands you and now you're in a huff about it.

I might care to chime in, though I'm pretty sure what I have to say is still not going to be whatever it is you are fishing for...

...but it's going to wait until after breakfast now. I can't deal with this before coffee.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The simple answer to your question is no. We just don't want you to dwell on that hypothetical- or infer that that could potentially make it any less harmful in this reality. It could not.

The point everyone is trying to make is that your question is not only unhelpful to you or anyone else, but that it is potentially harmful. And we don't want to cause that sort of harm.
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Flashbullzeye



Joined: 23 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I clearly re-state the same thing I've been trying to ask for the past two hours in big bold letters so no one can misunderstand exactly where the specific question I'm trying to ask is, and I'm an ass? I may have failed to communicate my meaning effectively initially, but I've clarified it about twenty times and no one seems to want to acknowledge it.

I also wasn't trying to be facetious with my use of the terms PoC or race-face. Nor with the white privilege part. I know I'm ignorant of the way some things work in society. I want to know. Which is why I'm asking.

Is this me being less of an ass and more clear? Let's make a list of reasons "race-face" makeup is offensive to people:
1) It is - probably forever - linked with disgusting, offensive, stereotypical buffoonery of white racists in Minstrel shows.
2) [Fill in the blank, or does it end at 1?]

Edit: Thank you, Istancow. I never had any imaginings that it would somehow make things better in this reality and my hypothetical question would somehow make society perfect and all lovey dovey towards each other (most of that is directed at what other people have said about it, not you). It was simply meant as a device to get past the obvious and find out if there was anything else at play here.

Edit Again: I'm also certainly not in a huff. I think the only thing I've said this entire time in any sort of actual frustration is responding to Monkey Mcdermott talking to me as if I'm a 5-year old with his "It's wrong to make fun of people," statements.


Last edited by Flashbullzeye on Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3128
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercian wrote:
Cactuar wrote:


**And as a side note on terminology because I find it needs to be confirmed sometimes, PoC, or Person/People of Color does not mean just black people. It means everyone who isn't white, and was coined to avoid using a phrase with a built in negative, i.e. non-white, which linguistically assumes that whiteness is the norm. It is also not the same as using the word "colored," which is bad and you shouldn't do it. I'm pretty sure everyone here knew that last bit, but I don't like to assume.


Thanks for this - I wasn't aware (about the PoC bit - I do know better than to say 'coloured').


I was aware, but I hear the term PoC mostly in discussions about black people, so I think I tend to lean heavily in that direction when using the term.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears that it was more important to you to actively steer the conversation than to actually take to heart anything said to you. I have a hard time believing you actually want to improve yourself.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to have helped. Now let's drop this awful conversation and talk about something else.

Like fish. What's your favorite fish? (to look at or to eat, I don't much care)

I like parrotfish. They're pretty and they're colourful and there are a bunch of them in the Caribbean and sometimes they poop sand.


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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flashbullzeye wrote:
I clearly re-state the same thing I've been trying to ask for the past two hours in big bold letters so no one can misunderstand exactly where the specific question I'm trying to ask is, and I'm an ass? I may have failed to communicate my meaning effectively initially, but I've clarified it about twenty times and no one seems to want to acknowledge it.

I also wasn't trying to be facetious with my use of the terms PoC or race-face. Nor with the white privilege part. I know I'm ignorant of the way some things work in society. I want to know. Which is why I'm asking.

Is this me being less of an ass and more clear? Let's make a list of reasons "race-face" makeup is offensive to people:
1) It is - probably forever - linked with disgusting, offensive, stereotypical buffoonery of white racists in Minstrel shows.
2) [Fill in the blank, or does it end at 1?]

Edit: Thank you, Istancow. I never had any imaginings that it would somehow make things better in this reality and my hypothetical question would somehow make society perfect and all lovey dovey towards each other (most of that is directed at what other people have said about it, not you). It was simply meant as a device to get past the obvious and find out if there was anything else at play here.


2) It re-normalizes the racist behavior.
3) If people approve of it, someone who is ignorant will think that blackface was never really a problem, was all in good fun, or something to that effect.
4) It adds to the problem of PoC as a costume you can put on.
5) Have you ever set foot in a costume shop or Halloween store? They are filled practically wall to wall offensive stereotypes. White people tend to think this is just fine and dandy.
6) Black people are regularly told in geek communities that they can't dress as white characters because their skin is black. Your nonchalantly dressing in blackface is a huge, ugly display of privilege, because you're not receiving that censure.
7) White people fetishize black people. This is gross.
Cool Black people were given no choice in the matter when minstrel shows were popular. Finally the practice was ended - thanks to a lot of hard, frightening work fighting racism. You want to disregard all that and dress in blackface - which means you agree that black people should still be given no choice in how they are represented, and you want them to just shut up while you parade your privilege all over the place.
9) Blackface is offensive.
10) It is - probably forever - linked with disgusting, offensive, stereotypical buffoonery of white racists in Minstrel shows.
11) It is - probably forever - linked with disgusting, offensive, stereotypical buffoonery of white racists in Minstrel shows.
12) It is - probably forever - linked with disgusting, offensive, stereotypical buffoonery of white racists in Minstrel shows.
13) It is - probably forever - linked with disgusting, offensive, stereotypical buffoonery of white racists in Minstrel shows.

Etc.....
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