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2013-07-26: Am I Done?
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:

Feminists that I have known have been some of the most vitriolic, anti-queer, racist people I've ever met. I recognize that there is a difference between people who think like them and feminism itself. And their views are far too prevalent but I hope to help those views die out as quickly as possible


Doesn't the controversy about what feminism actually is come from that "feminism" is a gigantic mass of multiple groups, of which the better half is in fact "pro-equality", while the other half is about "female supremacy compared to men", misandrists and sexist bastards pretty much just like the MRA?

I wish 'feminism' had a better name, that already implies that it's not just about the rights of women, but about equality of people in general. People seem to get confused about it far too much.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 816
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say that feminism wasn't full of problems (it is) but the MRAs don't take issue with it because, say, parts of it are racist and transphobic. They take issue with it because they hate women and don't want to lose their unearned privilege. They complain about anti-rape campaigns because they want to keep the lines blurry so they can get away with nonconsensual encounters because "she didn't say no", so that they can pretend it's her fault for drinking too much and just "regretting it" when they deliberately take advantage of someone. They take issue with equal pay because they don't think women are equal to them but thinly (very thinly) veil it with bullshit like "they just don't work as hard, are you saying they should be paid MORE when they're doing LESS work". What I really hate, having to go through that cesspool of a site AVFM, is that if you weren't familiar with the actual statistics of things it's actually quite convincing. If I had stumbled across it in my pre-feminism days I might have actually bought it. But 99% of the shit they say is completely unsubstantiated assfacts. Then they throw in some true problems but then instead of coming up with a workable solution based on the true reason for it they just blame it on feminism. Like the lower rate of reporting sexual harassment is fairly obviously because of restrictive hegemonic masculinity that prioritises being stoic, that being a victim and caring is somehow "feminine" and compromises one's manhood. But instead of taking issue with restrictive masculinity that is part of patriarchy, people like Paul Elam somehow come up with the idea that feminists are telling men they can't be sexually assaulted. And yeah, maybe there's a couple out there who have completely missed 99% of the point of feminism and are saying that but they haven't got those ideas from feminism, that's from the wider culture (aka patriarchy/kyriarchy) that says that men are strong(er than women, always). Under the patriarchy it's shameful for a man to admit a moment of weakness or helplessness, that he was hurt.

Oh man Stripey, don't even get me started on skeptical atheists. They make me ashamed to even share non-belief with them.

I think right now the biggest problem with feminism is mainstream feminism (hipster glasses moment). A lot of it is a sort of "I choose my choice" thing, very white and classist. Basically summed up in this parody twitter https://twitter.com/WhiteFeminist
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2760
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:

I wish 'feminism' had a better name, that already implies that it's not just about the rights of women, but about equality of people in general. People seem to get confused about it far too much.


Sadly I can't find the article but there's 2 problems with changing the name of Feminism:
1. Certain people would still hate and object to it no matter what it's named, because in their eyes it's something that will set them back.
2. Changing the name empowers those who don't wish to call themselves feminist because the name is too feminine, but that goes against what feminism wants to do: trying to break gender roles and wiping away the idea that anything feminine is wrong/weak.

As for the groups, I think it's important for people to realize that there will always be those with too extreme views and that others will declare all feminists to be so.

I'm more of a game feminist; as someone who plays oodles of games I strive to get more diversity in games (because good god, how many more rugged white straight cis men do we need?). I'm not good in promoting trans* and racial diversity issues because I'm not either, but I do my best to point others out to their shit if they say/show it.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 816
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:

I'm more of a game feminist; as someone who plays oodles of games I strive to get more diversity in games (because good god, how many more rugged white straight cis men do we need?). I'm not good in promoting trans* and racial diversity issues because I'm not either, but I do my best to point others out to their shit if they say/show it.

As a non-binary trans* person I will be happy if you just manage to put in more androgynous pretty-boy types for me to pretend to be. Japan rocks for this, I don't want to play as some bestubbled square-jawed brute with biceps bigger than my head. Oh yeah, and I would doubly appreciate short characters XD
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1053

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Zhuinden wrote:

I wish 'feminism' had a better name, that already implies that it's not just about the rights of women, but about equality of people in general. People seem to get confused about it far too much.


Sadly I can't find the article but there's 2 problems with changing the name of Feminism:
1. Certain people would still hate and object to it no matter what it's named, because in their eyes it's something that will set them back.
2. Changing the name empowers those who don't wish to call themselves feminist because the name is too feminine, but that goes against what feminism wants to do: trying to break gender roles and wiping away the idea that anything feminine is wrong/weak.

As for the groups, I think it's important for people to realize that there will always be those with too extreme views and that others will declare all feminists to be so.

I'm more of a game feminist; as someone who plays oodles of games I strive to get more diversity in games (because good god, how many more rugged white straight cis men do we need?). I'm not good in promoting trans* and racial diversity issues because I'm not either, but I do my best to point others out to their shit if they say/show it.


This probably isn't what you're looking for, but these lay out another very good reason not to change the name.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/05/why-not-say-everyday-humanism-instead-of-everyday-feminism/

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/04/12/faq-why-feminism-and-not-just-humanism-or-equalism-isnt-saying-youre-a-feminist-exclusionary/

And on top of that, how completely disrespectful and dismissive of the efforts and gains of past feminism is it to demand separation from it? Changing the name would just play into the diminishing and invalidation of those women, rather than validating them and standing with them. Women get erased from history and deprived of recognition (and heritage!) often enough. Fuck that noise.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which controversy? There are two things that I know of - the first is that the mainstream feminist groups are not inclusive enough, and the second is the MRA bit that feminists are out to overpower men and take over as bloodthirsty, powermad leaders.

The first is something which is currently being addressed. The second is really stupid.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2760
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feminism definitely needs to be more inclusive. We can't say we're striving for equal rights for everyone if all we argue for are white women.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1053

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or middle- and upper-class.
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