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Aug. 28: Woman Only
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Pixi-san



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Tat is trying very hard to truly get into the shoes (not pants) and minds of women....as someone who was abused by a male loved one for years without realizing it (making allowances for him based on patriarchal programming I somehow absorbed through subtle cultural osmosis )....its difficult...I was a woman who loved men and thought feminists were extremist man haters. It took a very sick man who took advantage of my submissive desire to please (like, where the hell did that even come from??? my mom was a strong woman,dad was a good man, thank goodness) to wake me up.

And I burned in rage for a long time at my blindness and stupidity. I thought I was smart! I thought this kind of thing didn't happen to smart women! I never knew what constituted as emotional and verbal abuse because I was never raised around such things. And here I was, a humiliated victim. I burned in rage for all the women who came before me and suffered the same dance of gender roles turned tragic. My pride was in shambles.The more I thought about it, the more my mind defragmented to cope with the destruction of old beliefs while processing new truths about reality.

But hey, I cooled off. Very very gradually. I still adore men. I have a fondness and sympathy for them. I can trust them. My trust in myself has eroded somewhat (can I trust my judgement about men?) but I focus on the gratitude of having survived such a trial and benefiting from the experience. It humbles. It makes you compassionate. You know what it means to forgive. You wonder if a man will ever see the true depth of your hurt and truly understand...

But maybe that's just my 'weak' girly side aching with longing.

But thank you Tat. It's good to see a man who is trying as hard as you are. I believe in men.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pixi-san wrote:
s someone who was abused by a male loved one for years without realizing it (making allowances for him based on patriarchal programming I somehow absorbed through subtle cultural osmosis )....its difficult...


I wonder what that abuse actually is. To know how severe it is that we are talking about.

You don't have to be female to want to 'please others'. Although many times, this approach is doomed to fail.

It would be odd 'not to trust men'. The only true difference between men and women is their genitals, and that's not exactly visible in an everyday setting.
I'm glad you didn't turn to misandry, that is just as unfounded as hatred towards any group of people based on the actions of a single individual.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2765
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it rather rude to ask what kind of abuse someone went through. Like it has to adhere to your certain standards for you to believe her.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
Geareye wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
merest wrote:
It's interesting (and I don't mean this in an ironic sense) that the male characters who are most like allies of the Sisterhood are also the least conventionally heterosexual. Lil E (around 5 years old a lot of the time). Gay Guy. Criminey (very passive, naive, and blushing at the drop of a hat). It would be interesting to see how Mr. Ishida would sympathetically treat male heterosexuality, without it being safely wrapped in blushing naivety or blameless passivity. That he may not be interested in doing so isn't a fault of the comic, however, since it is not contractually obliged to do any such thing.


I'm going to argue against your characterization of Criminy. He is shy and blushy (which is adorable), but the dude dug *A PIT TO HELL* to help Fuchsia. ... Thaaattt'''sss not really passive.


Agreed, when need calls for it, Criminy has proven he can be one hell of a badass. Passive, is certainly not the word to describe him. Patient, calm and adorkable, but not passive.


That's true; he did do that. I should really re-read that arc.


I'll admit, I'm a little in love with Crim for the whole "Badass Bookworm" thing he's got goin' on.
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enchantedsleeper



Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 202
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
Geareye wrote:
Felgraf wrote:

I'm going to argue against your characterization of Criminy. He is shy and blushy (which is adorable), but the dude dug *A PIT TO HELL* to help Fuchsia. ... Thaaattt'''sss not really passive.


Agreed, when need calls for it, Criminy has proven he can be one hell of a badass. Passive, is certainly not the word to describe him. Patient, calm and adorkable, but not passive.


That's true; he did do that. I should really re-read that arc.


Possibly my favourite Sinfest arc EVER? Though I know it's a big claim to make given the comic's been going for over 13 years now. There might well be an arc I'm forgetting. But that one is definitely right up the top for me and I love to re-read it <3
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pixi-san wrote:
I think Tat is trying very hard to truly get into the shoes (not pants) and minds of women....as someone who was abused by a male loved one for years without realizing it (making allowances for him based on patriarchal programming I somehow absorbed through subtle cultural osmosis )....its difficult...I was a woman who loved men and thought feminists were extremist man haters. It took a very sick man who took advantage of my submissive desire to please (like, where the hell did that even come from??? my mom was a strong woman,dad was a good man, thank goodness) to wake me up.

And I burned in rage for a long time at my blindness and stupidity. I thought I was smart! I thought this kind of thing didn't happen to smart women! I never knew what constituted as emotional and verbal abuse because I was never raised around such things. And here I was, a humiliated victim. I burned in rage for all the women who came before me and suffered the same dance of gender roles turned tragic. My pride was in shambles.The more I thought about it, the more my mind defragmented to cope with the destruction of old beliefs while processing new truths about reality.

But hey, I cooled off. Very very gradually. I still adore men. I have a fondness and sympathy for them. I can trust them. My trust in myself has eroded somewhat (can I trust my judgement about men?) but I focus on the gratitude of having survived such a trial and benefiting from the experience. It humbles. It makes you compassionate. You know what it means to forgive. You wonder if a man will ever see the true depth of your hurt and truly understand...

But maybe that's just my 'weak' girly side aching with longing.

But thank you Tat. It's good to see a man who is trying as hard as you are. I believe in men.


All the feels.

I'm sorry you dealt with that. We live in a messed up world where abuse victims of all kinds (male/female/other/both/gay/straight/bi/pan/black/white/green/purple/etc.) are taught that they did something to deserve the abuse. I've been lucky enough to avoid abusive romantic relationships, but I imagine it must be even harder than familial abuse for the fact that no one tells you that you should just leave your family, but they will blame you for not leaving a significant other.

And it's not your fault, and you don't deserve any blame. We're told that we should be patient and understanding, even when people are hurting us, and that's wrong. We're told that we should stand by our abusers because they're family, or that we must not actually love them if we don't take their abuse, and that's wrong.

Even though I don't write it, I am so happy to hear that this comic is making you feel better. You're not alone, and you deserve to know that.

--

Zhuinden: I agree with Yinello. Abuse is abuse is abuse. It comes in different forms, but they're all damaging. I've been financially and emotionally abused, and while those aren't (usually) as life-threatening as physical abuse, they are still awful, disgusting, mind-altering things. Don't try to make my abuse or Pixi-san's abuse fit your personal definition.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10800
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Pixi-san wrote:
s someone who was abused by a male loved one for years without realizing it (making allowances for him based on patriarchal programming I somehow absorbed through subtle cultural osmosis )....its difficult...


I wonder what that abuse actually is. To know how severe it is that we are talking about.

You don't have to be female to want to 'please others'. Although many times, this approach is doomed to fail.

It would be odd 'not to trust men'. The only true difference between men and women is their genitals, and that's not exactly visible in an everyday setting.
I'm glad you didn't turn to misandry, that is just as unfounded as hatred towards any group of people based on the actions of a single individual.

To second what Yinello said, you have no place to ask someone about their abuse in a public forum. If she wanted to tell you she would have.

Second, hating (or, more likely, mistrusting) all of a group based on the behavior of one may be irrational but it's also entirely human. People aren't even rational at the best times (when they're calm - how many people have adequate retirement accounts or rainy day funds?), if you expect them to be rational in the worst moments of their lives you're just going to spend a lot of time judging people who are already hurt. A better solution is to understand the ways in which people are irrational so you can understand their circumstances and let things slide until they're in a frame of mind to listen to reason.

Third, your understanding of the physical differences between male and female bodies seems oddly lacking.
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Onimaru



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Zhuinden, I'll give you a scene of abuse, sure it's not common, but I can speak from personal experience.

My Father is a very independant person, not unfeeling, or harsh, just independant. My Mother is a very co-dependant person, she is someone that always needs to feel involved in her significant others affairs, from minor decisions to what they are doing day in and day out. This led to their divorce, and as such have remained friendly and able to raise me and my two older sisters with much less Drama than if they had tried staying together.

My Father and Mother both encouraged all of us to do whatever we wanted and to follow our dreams, both my Sisters have successful businesses and I'm currently in the Canadian Armed Forces, so I'd say we did alright Smile

However as I said my Father was very independant, so much so that the Women in his life felt many times 'unneeded' as he would do EVERYTHING he could without help, yes he would ask for help now and again with things but wouldn't NEED it. This left my Mother and Sisters feeling like he pushed others away with his refusal to rely on others.

When I began to exihibit traits similar to my Father during my late Teens and early Adult Life, the Women in my life reacted.... Badly. They began to belittle every choice I made if it made me happy. I'm happy being single and just enjoying my freedom? What was wrong with me? I was happy with doing Reserve Work for a few years to spend more time with my friends before Joining the Regular Force? That's not the way you should think about your future! Every choice I made they tried to drive home that 'I wasn't good enough' to make choices on my own, that I NEEDED someone to help, a companion to fulfill the things I was so obviously lacking, so I don't wind up alone like my Father.

This went on for almost 5 years, my just 'enduring' it as they were family, and you can't just abandon family right? Finally I had enough, I sat down with them, tore them down for trying to run my life and I told them flat out if they didn't stop trying to run my life, or try to coerce others into changing my decisions, I would cut them out. I swore that I would never be in the same room with them again, my Mother would lose her Son, and my Sister's their Brother and the next time I would see any of them would be at a Funeral for Dad and after that never again.

And they backed down, after that they have been nothing if not the best influences on my life, I love and apprecate them, but I was one breath away from cutting them out of my life forever. And I will say that sadly for years because of it, during and after I had a deep rooted distrust of women, thinking they were all manipulative controllers seeking to run my life if I let them in. I have since found a woman that has dispelled all such fears, and the years of reading this comic recently have helped me past much of my perceptions and prejudices that I had built up.

So there you have it Abuse, I wasn't hurt, I wasn't hit. But I was manipulated and psychologically tormented for YEARS to satsify someone elses idea of what I should be, WHO I should be to be 'Happy' and 'Normal'.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Pixi-san wrote:
s someone who was abused by a male loved one for years without realizing it (making allowances for him based on patriarchal programming I somehow absorbed through subtle cultural osmosis )....its difficult...


I wonder what that abuse actually is. To know how severe it is that we are talking about.

You don't have to be female to want to 'please others'. Although many times, this approach is doomed to fail.

It would be odd 'not to trust men'. The only true difference between men and women is their genitals, and that's not exactly visible in an everyday setting.
I'm glad you didn't turn to misandry, that is just as unfounded as hatred towards any group of people based on the actions of a single individual.


You don't need to know the details. All you need to know is that it was severe abuse.

Clearly you need to educate yourself on what abuse s and what the after effects are.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17282
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eten wrote:
So I heard from a co-worker that the only reason why Tat does this man-hating feminism stuff is because he's trying to get into a feminists pants. Boy did my co-worker have hate for Tat!


the feminist is stripey, right? well, who wouldn't want fabulous stripey pants (with sparkles)?

and i'm guessing your coworker is just jealous because he can't fit into those pants.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10800
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite being a relative recluse for years, all of a sudden people who don't like the comic have an amazing amount of insight into Tat's personal life. It's almost like they're making shit up to try and normalize his behavior within a narrow, gender stereotyped set of reactions that conforms to their world view.

But that would be irrational, and people are always... WaitI forgot who I was making fun of here.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Eten wrote:
So I heard from a co-worker that the only reason why Tat does this man-hating feminism stuff is because he's trying to get into a feminists pants. Boy did my co-worker have hate for Tat!


the feminist is stripey, right? well, who wouldn't want fabulous stripey pants (with sparkles)?

and i'm guessing your coworker is just jealous because he can't fit into those pants.


Oh! Well if that's all he wants, I'll be sure to save him a nice sequined pair.
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Amilam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 922

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to pretend to know what's going on inside Tat's head, but he seems to be pretty explicitly remorseful about the nature of his early work. Fair enough, but this endless stream of shallow and repetitive feminism-lite detracts from the message. There's been minimal character development or humor, and while the art remains fantastic, the visual symbolism has been so long used as a cudgel that it has become dull and boring. I can't imagine this even appealing to the choir.

Whatever, it's Tat's comic and he can run it as he pleases, but it seems to me that he could have a much greater impact if he painted his ideas with some of the care that he uses in his art.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amilam wrote:
I'm not going to pretend to know what's going on inside Tat's head, but he seems to be pretty explicitly remorseful about the nature of his early work. Fair enough, but this endless stream of shallow and repetitive feminism-lite detracts from the message. There's been minimal character development or humor, and while the art remains fantastic, the visual symbolism has been so long used as a cudgel that it has become dull and boring. I can't imagine this even appealing to the choir.

Whatever, it's Tat's comic and he can run it as he pleases, but it seems to me that he could have a much greater impact if he painted his ideas with some of the care that he uses in his art.


Well, if there's one thing that would somewhat add to the message, would be if they allowed Criminy to walk in there, and they'd replace the sign with 'No dudebros allowed'.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this analogy will help make things clearer to some of the "having a women's space is discriminating!" crowd. Mainly if you're American*. Say you've been brought up in the Bible Belt** and are pretty much bombarded with Christianity every day. You walk past churches with enormous signs, people say "I'll pray for you", when the topic of nonbelief comes up in a group everyone shakes their head and mutters to themselves about heathens hating God and ruining the country, that they can't be trusted, etc. And you're an atheist.

Now, while you know quite a few Christians who aren't going to say any of that crap to you, they're probably even your friends, you can't really be completely free around them, can you? Even if it's a bit paranoid, you're aware that it's possible that if you make a joke about God being a huge arsehole based on... basically all of the bible, they could pretty easily turn a lot of people (who are Christians) against you. If word gets to employers, they might not hire you, or promote you. So to talk about that kind of stuff (not just jokes, also serious things) you think maybe it would be best to assemble a group of just atheists and be able to speak freely with each other, and you all know where each other is coming from. Sounds fair, yeah? Pretty much every other place you go to and group you're in there are lots of Christians, it's not like you're some sort of atheist separatist, you just want to hang with some people who you have this one thing in common with and talk about your experiences.

But then when your Christian friends find out, they want to come. Even though you're with them all the time and do all kinds of other stuff together, they want to go to the one thing that, frankly, isn't for them. You try to explain why as nicely as possible, but then they suddenly throw a tantrum and claim you hate all Christians and are probably plotting something, because if you didn't and you weren't then you'd let them in. But you know with even one Christian in the group it would probably defeat the point of having an atheist space in the first place. You'd try to discuss the obviously dubious morality of telling a father to kill his son to prove his faith while supposedly being omniscent and omnipotent and they'd butt in with "but that was Old Testament God, and even so, he needed to do it to test his faith!" completely missing the whole point of it. And this happens every time, or nearly every time there's a Christian around. Yeah, maybe there are a handful that can have well-thought out theological debates with you and your fellow atheists that everyone enjoys and are pretty amicable, but 99% of the time it ends up being people who were brought up with the bible giving the same non-answers and justifications all over again, and you just don't want to go through it.

So you create an atheist/agnostic only space for that reason, and go bowling or to the movies or play mini-golf with your various religious friends another day. They're not being hurt by not being involved in one thing in your life and it gives you a place to comfortably vent the about the microaggressions you've experienced from Christians during the week.

Ideally I could extend this analogy further but I just discovered that A Very Potter Senior Year is out and I NEED TO WATCH IT. Instead I'll just leave you with an actual list of Christian Privilege.

*Even though I'm not, but thanks to the internet and media I'm probably more familiar with it than I am my own country.

**Really anywhere in America though, since Christianity basically pervades everything.[/i]
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