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Aug. 28: Woman Only
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
[awesome analogy]


Hell, I'm a woman, and even I understand the idea of a women-only space better after this. o_o (I'm Agnostic and I live in Kentucky, so... yeah.)

Though personally, I've never minded when people say that they'll pray for me. It just means they hope things get better for me. Now, if they said it about my beliefs, like, praying that I'll "turn to God" one day or something, that would be different.

And I really have nothing against Christians. Most of them are perfectly nice people. But I wouldn't want to involve them in a discussion about whether or not God is real, because it would feel disrespectful-- which is similar to the reason women might not want to complain about their bad experiences with men around their male friends. People who are in these groups tend to take it personally. If I say to my dad that society teaches men to [insert thing here], he immediately goes on the defensive, even though it's not about him, it's about the world. In the same way, talking about whether God is real wouldn't be about Christians, but about the world.

Ennis, my mind has been blown. Thank you for making this comparison.
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Thenadathor



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
Maybe this analogy will help make things clearer to some of the "having a women's space is discriminating!" crowd. Mainly if you're American*. Say you've been brought up in the Bible Belt** and are pretty much bombarded with Christianity every day. You walk past churches with enormous signs, people say "I'll pray for you", when the topic of nonbelief comes up in a group everyone shakes their head and mutters to themselves about heathens hating God and ruining the country, that they can't be trusted, etc. And you're an atheist.

Now, while you know quite a few Christians who aren't going to say any of that crap to you, they're probably even your friends, you can't really be completely free around them, can you? Even if it's a bit paranoid, you're aware that it's possible that if you make a joke about God being a huge arsehole based on... basically all of the bible, they could pretty easily turn a lot of people (who are Christians) against you. If word gets to employers, they might not hire you, or promote you. So to talk about that kind of stuff (not just jokes, also serious things) you think maybe it would be best to assemble a group of just atheists and be able to speak freely with each other, and you all know where each other is coming from. Sounds fair, yeah? Pretty much every other place you go to and group you're in there are lots of Christians, it's not like you're some sort of atheist separatist, you just want to hang with some people who you have this one thing in common with and talk about your experiences.

But then when your Christian friends find out, they want to come. Even though you're with them all the time and do all kinds of other stuff together, they want to go to the one thing that, frankly, isn't for them. You try to explain why as nicely as possible, but then they suddenly throw a tantrum and claim you hate all Christians and are probably plotting something, because if you didn't and you weren't then you'd let them in. But you know with even one Christian in the group it would probably defeat the point of having an atheist space in the first place. You'd try to discuss the obviously dubious morality of telling a father to kill his son to prove his faith while supposedly being omniscent and omnipotent and they'd butt in with "but that was Old Testament God, and even so, he needed to do it to test his faith!" completely missing the whole point of it. And this happens every time, or nearly every time there's a Christian around. Yeah, maybe there are a handful that can have well-thought out theological debates with you and your fellow atheists that everyone enjoys and are pretty amicable, but 99% of the time it ends up being people who were brought up with the bible giving the same non-answers and justifications all over again, and you just don't want to go through it.

So you create an atheist/agnostic only space for that reason, and go bowling or to the movies or play mini-golf with your various religious friends another day. They're not being hurt by not being involved in one thing in your life and it gives you a place to comfortably vent the about the microaggressions you've experienced from Christians during the week.

Ideally I could extend this analogy further but I just discovered that A Very Potter Senior Year is out and I NEED TO WATCH IT. Instead I'll just leave you with an actual list of Christian Privilege.

*Even though I'm not, but thanks to the internet and media I'm probably more familiar with it than I am my own country.

**Really anywhere in America though, since Christianity basically pervades everything.[/i]


would you acknowledge that in our current society, your faith and your gender/sex dont have the same degree of choice involved?
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Jody



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'll know Slick has undergone some personal growth when he walks up to the women-only space, and instead of intruding he leaves them a plate of cookies that he baked.

I don't know that he ever will, and I'm not saying he should. It was just a thought. Smile
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Most of them are perfectly nice people. But I wouldn't want to involve them in a discussion about whether or not God is real, because it would feel disrespectful-- which is similar to the reason women might not want to complain about their bad experiences with men around their male friends. People who are in these groups tend to take it personally. If I say to my dad that society teaches men to [insert thing here], he immediately goes on the defensive, even though it's not about him, it's about the world. In the same way, talking about whether God is real wouldn't be about Christians, but about the world.


yes - and as a result, you often start self-censoring, because you don't want to upset or offend people, and then since you don't want to bring certain subjects up, you don't even really know any more whether they would be offended or not, so you just assume they will be - and you end up not talking about the very things you most want or need to talk about.

good analogy, ennis!
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:


would you acknowledge that in our current society, your faith and your gender/sex dont have the same degree of choice involved?


but the degree of choice you have on being in a group doesn't change the fact that you still may want or need to hang out with people who are in the group with you, and thus have if not a better at least a more similar understanding of the problems and interests of said group.

i mean, i knit totally by choice, and i can stop knitting at any time (really, i can!) - doesn't mean there aren't good reasons for me to hang out on ravelry and share knitting stuff with other knitters. (and it's not entirely because some of the knitting stuff is pretty boring to non-knitters.)
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:


would you acknowledge that in our current society, your faith and your gender/sex dont have the same degree of choice involved?


but the degree of choice you have on being in a group doesn't change the fact that you still may want or need to hang out with people who are in the group with you, and thus have if not a better at least a more similar understanding of the problems and interests of said group.

i mean, i knit totally by choice, and i can stop knitting at any time (really, i can!) - doesn't mean there aren't good reasons for me to hang out on ravelry and share knitting stuff with other knitters. (and it's not entirely because some of the knitting stuff is pretty boring to non-knitters.)


GOD, YOU KNITTERS, ALWAYS WANTING YOUR "KNITTERS-ONLY" SPACES!
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and we can defend them with our pointy sticks! so there!
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am here to represent crocheters and say that knitters suck! Because...because!

Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil

CROCHET FOREVAR!

(Warning: This is for the purposes of illustration only. Were I actually against knitters, my roommate would probably stab me with his many pointy knitting sticks, and he would never share his awesome projects with me ever again.)
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I am here to represent crocheters and say that knitters suck! Because...because!

Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil

CROCHET FOREVAR!

(Warning: This is for the purposes of illustration only. Were I actually against knitters, my roommate would probably stab me with his many pointy knitting sticks, and he would never share his awesome projects with me ever again.)


Gotta say, two pointy sticks is better than one.

I neither knit nor crochet.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey, some of us do socks! ON FIVE POINTY STICKS!!!

we are to be feared and worshipped. or else.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I can do everything with one hooked stick! Except I don't because I'm too lazy/uninterested to learn more than a few things!
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
hey, some of us do socks! ON FIVE POINTY STICKS!!!

we are to be feared and worshipped. or else.


Personally, I prefer the knitters nunchucks* myself.

*this is what i'm going to refer to circulars as from now on. because reasons.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, yes, once i figured out two-at-a-time, a circular is really the only way to go. but that doesn't sound at all impressive, so i'm going to adopt the nunchucks usage as well.

FEAR US, OH NON-KNITTERS! WE HAVE NUNCHUCKS AND MULTIPLE POINTY STICKS! WITH POINTS AT BOTH ENDS EVEN!

oh, oh, oh - and nana is one of us! WE ARE THE BEST!
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
well, yes, once i figured out two-at-a-time, a circular is really the only way to go. but that doesn't sound at all impressive, so i'm going to adopt the nunchucks usage as well.

FEAR US, OH NON-KNITTERS! WE HAVE NUNCHUCKS AND MULTIPLE POINTY STICKS! WITH POINTS AT BOTH ENDS EVEN!

oh, oh, oh - and nana is one of us! WE ARE THE BEST!


...Sorry, Stripey, but Mouse makes a pretty good argument.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree. No matter how many pointy sticks you have, they cannot compete with even ONE barbed pointy stick wielded properly.

And if two is so much better than one, then why are unicycles so much better than bicycles? Huh?

as for five wheels, well, that's only rarely a sane design choice.
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