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2013-08-23 Creepin' it Real
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bad news, Tat, you made the drones cute, and that gave people an excuse to sympathize with them and miss the point
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
bad news, Tat, you made the drones cute, and that gave people an excuse to sympathize with them and miss the point


Eh? It's not because their cute. I suspect they may be as capable of sapience as the fembots. Now, of course, as I'e said, I'm not sure *the Sisterhood* has any reason to believe they're capable of sapience: They haven't been shown the little interludes we, as the reader, have been.

Eh I suppose part of the problem is the issue of AI 'rights' is something I've wondered about a lot. It's one of the reasons I'm nervous about AI research, because I really do think if we manage to create a 'true' AI... we're going to treat it as a thing, not a person.

And I realize the fembots are supposed to be symbolic of how women can be 'programmed', but we *already* also have women characters that are/were influenced/programmed by the patriarchy (sort-of monique before her awakening, and a LOT of the devil girls), and, meh. Sometimes authors raise points/issues, even if that's not what they *intended* to do.
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"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no

it's because they're cute

of course this particular drone was also being a creep but apparently that's not important and we will brush that under the rug and ignore it because the drones are cute and this one got "killed" and it's just so awful and mean and now we're going to wring our hands and have this stilted, ridiculous "AI rights" conversation that we all strangely didn't have when the fembots were around, because i guess they weren't cute or they had an agenda attached to them or whatever, and we're going to pretend there's some equivalency between them even though the drones are freaking flying Illuminati symbols that spy on people and work for the devil the fembots were pretty obviously meant to look exactly like women and act in particular ways related to gender mores and at any rate certainly aren't the devil's little minions

but they're cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute so that's more important and now we will invent false moral equivalence bleegh blugh bleagh blergh bluuuuuuuuuuuh
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
no

it's because they're cute

of course this particular drone was also being a creep but apparently that's not important and we will brush that under the rug and ignore it because the drones are cute and this one got "killed" and it's just so awful and mean and now we're going to wring our hands and have this stilted, ridiculous "AI rights" conversation that we all strangely didn't have when the fembots were around, because i guess they weren't cute or they had an agenda attached to them or whatever, and we're going to pretend there's some equivalency between them even though the drones are freaking flying Illuminati symbols that spy on people and work for the devil the fembots were pretty obviously meant to look exactly like women and act in particular ways related to gender mores and at any rate certainly aren't the devil's little minions

but they're cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute so that's more important and now we will invent false moral equivalence bleegh blugh bleagh blergh bluuuuuuuuuuuh


So is that theo nly reason people care about fembots, too? 'Cause they're human looking?

This one *was* being a creep. Given the knowledge that she had (Lil sis has NO REASON to believe they are sapient), the action she took is logical and honestly probably correct.

... And, uh. I'm pretty sure we DID have the AI rights conversations with the fembots. Or am I just imagining "sapient toasters"?

Also I seem to recall the devil did also use the fembots for spying? In that he could see what people were doing using them, unless I'm misremembering. (I would think he *WOULD*, given that he, uh, *also* makes them. They're just *not* obviously flying Illuminati symbols.)
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"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

of course people look at the fembots differently--because they look like humans, and the artist obviously chose to make them look like humans, and he's consistently treated them differently from the drones, and used them in different ways, for different purposes.

and yet why do people still sympathize with the drones? because they're cute and funny. and apparently we're supposed to act like this one got "killed" and that's such a bad thing omg it's no different from the fembots getting "killed" even though you know it obviously is

and, seriously, if you honestly think that "sapient toaster" thing was some kind of "conversation" about "AI rights" and not just rothide vomiting up half-formed, incoherent impressions and me egging him on, then, well, wow, your dealer hooks you up with some good shit.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
of course people look at the fembots differently--because they look like humans, and the artist obviously chose to make them look like humans, and he's consistently treated them differently from the drones, and used them in different ways, for different purposes.

and yet why do people still sympathize with the drones? because they're cute and funny. and apparently we're supposed to act like this one got "killed" and that's such a bad thing omg it's no different from the fembots getting "killed" even though you know it obviously is

and, seriously, if you honestly think that "sapient toaster" thing was some kind of "conversation" about "AI rights" and not just rothide vomiting up half-formed, incoherent impressions and me egging him on, then, well, wow, your dealer hooks you up with some good shit.


Well, no, I was more saying some people dissented-but you're right. Most everyone, immediately, assumed the fembots were sapient... because they looked human. Despite the fact that they are ALSO massed produced spying robots by the guy that makes the illuminati drones.

Sorry, I wasn't aware A) You had a psychic link to tats brain, and B) Art/entertainment could only be discussed by what the artist intended, not what he actually showed. I apologize for having the audacity to dare question the authority of the Almight Shadowcell, who can psychically peer into the TRUE motivations of all he argues with. (the same way Thy apparently can, too.)

But no, you know one of the reasons I slightly sympathize with the spybots? BECAUSE I AM A FUCKING MARSHMALLOW. They have been show, like the fembots, to be capapble of sapience *when introduced to an outside source* (Zen-bopping or reality zone-I'm unsure if fembots are capable of acting in a self-deterministic fashion *until* acted on by an outside source, like the drones. Or maybe they are, but we haven't really been shown it? As the ones that attacked seemed to be more simply opperating on *new* programming.).

I mean, fuck, I can't even play evil mode in videogames.
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"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1054

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't Battlestar Galactica already play, like, this entire conundrum out and then some?
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
"AI rights" conversation that we all strangely didn't have when the fembots were around, because i guess they weren't cute or they had an agenda attached to them or whatever

You lost me here.

You claim that we didn't discuss AI rights or morality attached to AI treatment?

I mean, man! One of those discussions originated the toaster meme!
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Didn't Battlestar Galactica already play, like, this entire conundrum out and then some?


Possibly? I admit I never watched it.
_________________
"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and it's all especially silly and stilted and ridiculous for something that is quite clearly identified and treated as a machine, and thus, can be fixed and put back together and, y'know, un-"killed," on top of everything else, which means it's pretty ridiculous for you to go spouting about how they got "killed" in the first place.

and yes, someone in Sinfestia could just put the fembots back together too and so they wouldn't be "dead," but that wasn't the point of the comics where the fembots get "killed." the mystical psychic bond i share with tatsuya ishida, which the ancients call "reading the comic," told me so.

man, if looking at the pixels on the screen is all it takes to have a "psychic connection," then i am fuckin' clairvoyant here. and it makes me wonder what the hell you've been doing this whole time. you too could have a psychic connection with tat's brain! it's easy! the part where different things happen to different characters on the screen is all it takes to open your mind to the vast unfathomable vista of the mind of tatsuya ishida! and this transcendent experience can be yours for only five easy payments of $19.95!

this must be related to the part where i said that "Art/entertainment could only be discussed by what the artist intended, not what he actually showed." it's almost as if all this time, when i said that your interpretation is not grounded in what is actually on the screen, i was saying that your interpretation is dumb, not that you are not entitled to have one! you can have all the marshmallowy interpretations you want. are you saying that they are all beyond criticism? because that's certainly a lot more audacious than anything i've said.

christ almighty
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
and it's all especially silly and stilted and ridiculous for something that is quite clearly identified and treated as a machine, and thus, can be fixed and put back together and, y'know, un-"killed," on top of everything else, which means it's pretty ridiculous for you to go spouting about how they got "killed" in the first place.

and yes, someone in Sinfestia could just put the fembots back together too and so they wouldn't be "dead," but that wasn't the point of the comics where the fembots get "killed." the mystical psychic bond i share with tatsuya ishida, which the ancients call "reading the comic," told me so.

man, if looking at the pixels on the screen is all it takes to have a "psychic connection," then i am fuckin' clairvoyant here. and it makes me wonder what the hell you've been doing this whole time. you too could have a psychic connection with tat's brain! it's easy! the part where different things happen to different characters on the screen is all it takes to open your mind to the vast unfathomable vista of the mind of tatsuya ishida! and this transcendent experience can be yours for only five easy payments of $19.95!

this must be related to the part where i said that "Art/entertainment could only be discussed by what the artist intended, not what he actually showed." it's almost as if all this time, when i said that your interpretation is not grounded in what is actually on the screen, i was saying that your interpretation is dumb, not that you are not entitled to have one! you can have all the marshmallowy interpretations you want. are you saying that they are all beyond criticism? because that's certainly a lot more audacious than anything i've said.

christ almighty


Nope! My views aren't beyond criticism. Arguing and disagreeing with them is fine!

What isn't fine (in my view), and what pisses me the fark off, is when people claim to know the REAL reason someone is arguing something, and choose to engage this mystical 'presumed' argument. As opposed to, you know, the actual points the person is putting forth. In this case, your presumption that I was only arguing this 'because the drones were cute'.

It's an asshole move when misogynists do it (oh, well, you only believe that because you're a woman/arguing from emotion, not the actual reasons you're saying it!) , it's an asshole move when Thy does it, it's an asshole move (in my opinion) when you do it. It's one of my major pet peeves, and seems, you know, *inherently dishonest* to me.

Obviously I'm not the grand imperator of morality, I'm just saying why I was starting to get especially torqued off.
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"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

protip: if you don't like people making "presumed" arguments, you shouldn't go proving them right, El Marshmallow. because then it's not actually "presumed," it's just, y'know, correct.

not to mention the part where i actually did address the actual points the person is putting forth, but that's not important, i know.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
protip: if you don't like people making "presumed" arguments, you shouldn't go proving them right, El Marshmallow. because then it's not actually "presumed," it's just, y'know, correct.

not to mention the part where i actually did address the actual points the person is putting forth, but that's not important, i know.


... Eexccceepppt the marshmallow bit has nothing to do with their cuteness, just with me being overly empathetic in general. And furthemore, doesn't really have to do with the AI-rights part of my argument. I feel a bit bad for the 'bots 'cause they're capapble of feeling pain and because I'm a marshmallow. I'm curious about the AI sapience standpoint *for a different reason*. I mean, I feel bad squashing bugs, and I *KNOW* they aren't sapient. So no, you're not right, walter, you're just being an asshole.

(I probably shouldn't paraphrase movies I haven't seen, but fuck it.)

And you sort of adressed my points, but sort of didn't.

Yes, I agree, symbolically we are *supposed* to care more about the fembots, because they have been presented as humanoid and women.

But I am trying to point out that, *if we accept the continuity tats has created*, there isn't a huuuugeee difference between Fembots and Drones (both robots, both capable of sapience/self-determination when exposed to outside conditions, both made by the devil to help enforce the patriarchy, both capable of spying). So should we *only* care about the fembots because they're female-analogue? If they weren't female-shaped, but, say, flesh-light shaped (.. so.. female part shaped?.. .. I have squicked myself with the thought of a sapient fleshlight BUT ANYWAYS), should we no longer care?

EDIT: I should clarify:

When a comic/story/artist goes "YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT X THINGS, BUT NOT Z THINGS."

"... why? There's a lot of similarities between X and Z when you dig deeper. Z's don't even have gender, so they can't be male-analogues, and they're both enslaved by-"

"BECAUSE I SAY SO. LOOK. X LOOKS LIKE A HUMAN. THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT X."

I see that to be.. uh. Kind of lazy, and not really terribly compelling.
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"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I think they're cute and genuinely possible to sympathize with.
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Varthonai



Joined: 19 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aaaaaa i'm so sorry guys i didn't want to start a fight Embarassed this is going terribly

ShadowCell wrote:
of course this particular drone was also being a creep but apparently that's not important and we will brush that under the rug and ignore it because the drones are cute and this one got "killed" and it's just so awful and mean and now we're going to wring our hands and have this stilted, ridiculous "AI rights" conversation that we all strangely didn't have when the fembots were around, because i guess they weren't cute or they had an agenda attached to them or whatever, and we're going to pretend there's some equivalency between them even though the drones are freaking flying Illuminati symbols that spy on people and work for the devil the fembots were pretty obviously meant to look exactly like women and act in particular ways related to gender mores and at any rate certainly aren't the devil's little minions


i would have brought it up with the fembots because it occurred to me then too and i've already mentioned them in this discussion but i didn't have an account back then i'm sorry Crying or Very sad
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