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The Porn Discussion Thread
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: The Porn Discussion Thread Reply with quote

There was a suggestion that the discussion and debate of pornography that often surfaces in the comic subforum be moved to General Discussion. I did not see any action on this so far, so I am creating this thread.

Pornography is a very widely consumed form of entertainment in many parts of the world, and is slowly (I believe) beginning to shed its status as a taboo.

There are many who believe in porn's positive potential.

There are also many who find pornography to be a cause for objection.

So:

• What, if any, do you believe the problems are with pornography?

• What, if any, do you believe are the positive aspects, or the potential positive aspects of pornography?

Discuss below.
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Last edited by Istancow on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this was a joke when Squig asked it, but we actually do probably need an agreed-upon definition before we proceed: That is: What *is* porn?

I'd consider porn any art or writing or video or images etc etc created for the purpose of sexual titillation-which means 50 Shades of Grey, Slashfics, and The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife are also 'porn'. This is the definition I consider

But a lot of times I've seen the word used/discussed, *especially in these circumstances*/relating to these discussions, it seems to specifically refer to live-action videos and images. By this definition, furry porn isn't, well, porn. Nor is 50 shades of grey, nor is drawings of cartoon characters etc etc. After all, while many fanfics and, say, 50 shades of grey may be horrific and sexist, the writing itself does not actively exploit women (insomuch as the characters being exploited are not *actually* real people. The views the stories, art, etc can still teach/convey really bad ideas, but there is not a living person being *exploited*. So if you say "Porn exploits women in the industry!", that seems to imply you don't consider, say, hentai mangas porn, because those aren't actual actors or people.)

Mostly I'm posting this because I always find it intensely frustrating when I realize two sides are arguing not because they necessarily disagree, but because they don't realize *they are using different definitions of a word* (and/or different axioms).

So I know this was sort of mocked when Squig brought this up as a deflection, but I'm not trying to deflect anything here. Rather I'm just trying to.. I don't know. Make sure we're all using the same axioms/basis?

EDIT: I should note this doesn't even have to be a long discussion! We could just say "We are talking about the porn industry, so mostly live-action pornography", and that would be that. I wonder if this disconnect is *why* some people get seriously up in arms whenever porn comes up, though.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't think you can separate live action from other. even in live-action, even though actual humans are involved, the characters depicted aren't any more "real" than those in books or paintings. they aren't doing what they want to do or showing what they really feel; they are doing and showing what the writer/director wants them to. and in a lot of porn, even live action, what they are showing is not normal healthy sexual relationships.

i will bring up something Monkey mentioned in another thread - porn is frequently the way young people learn how they are supposed to go about this whole sexual-relations thing, and it screws them up. this is slightly off the subject, but i heard a story on npr the other day about how boys are more frequently using texting/sexting to flirt with girls, and this is getting increasingly aggressive, because a) the boys are modeling what they see in media and b) they are not having face-to-face interactions with girls, so they don't get the immediate feedback (even just from seeing the girl's expression) that lets them know they are out of line. a lot of what they are modeling on is porn, and it's hurting both them and the girls.

Quote:
“Boys are getting horrible messages today about how one makes an overture to a girl you have a crush on,” Steiner-Adair told Here & Now. “The ethos today is a kind of crude, sexually aggressive overture is the way to proceed.”


...and that leads to boys thinking this is normal and internalizing the misogyny, and in turn leads to the high rate of sexual violence we see now.

so anyway - that tends to be what i think is wrong with it, or at least the majority of it.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
porn is frequently the way young people learn how they are supposed to go about this whole sexual-relations thing, and it screws them up.


This is the most important part of the issue of porn.

Cindy Gallop's talk on "Make Love Not Porn" is practically required watching for the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm7cVImCJ6U

(i have no idea if her whole website idea went anywhere, but)
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Sam



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I am going to go ahead and say that that video alone basically contributes the whole requisite kaboodle of literally anything I would have to say on the subject of porn, shy of if I could get my porn-producing friends to contribute their take on the porn issue.

Please just watch the whole thing before we get into any minute; it's just too important a summation
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That video was interesting. I like her perspective. Thank you.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that "Porn has negative repercussions" isn't even worth discussing. Of course it is, even if we take in account the segments of porn that are more 'decency friendly' it won't negate the fact that, as a majority, porn does have them.

...With that said.

What's worth discussing is "What does porn have the potential to be?" In this context, thinking that 'porn is not good' I think is beyond problematic, not only because it's a whole industry with lots of people that participate there and are worthy of respect, but also because it negates the chance of things getting better.

And things will continue to be, regardless of the results of this or any other discussion.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just popping in, i haven't been ignoring this, but i want to take the time to make sure my response is as cogent and well thought out as i can.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Just popping in


hur hur
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i don't think you can separate live action from other. even in live-action, even though actual humans are involved, the characters depicted aren't any more "real" than those in books or paintings. they aren't doing what they want to do or showing what they really feel; they are doing and showing what the writer/director wants them to. and in a lot of porn, even live action, what they are showing is not normal healthy sexual relationships.

i will bring up something Monkey mentioned in another thread - porn is frequently the way young people learn how they are supposed to go about this whole sexual-relations thing, and it screws them up. this is slightly off the subject, but i heard a story on npr the other day about how boys are more frequently using texting/sexting to flirt with girls, and this is getting increasingly aggressive, because a) the boys are modeling what they see in media and b) they are not having face-to-face interactions with girls, so they don't get the immediate feedback (even just from seeing the girl's expression) that lets them know they are out of line. a lot of what they are modeling on is porn, and it's hurting both them and the girls.

Quote:
“Boys are getting horrible messages today about how one makes an overture to a girl you have a crush on,” Steiner-Adair told Here & Now. “The ethos today is a kind of crude, sexually aggressive overture is the way to proceed.”


...and that leads to boys thinking this is normal and internalizing the misogyny, and in turn leads to the high rate of sexual violence we see now.

so anyway - that tends to be what i think is wrong with it, or at least the majority of it.


That's fair. See, this is why I'm glad I asked that question, because otherwise I might think you *were* only talking about live-action or what have you. You raise a good point. Though I would argue that certain arguments (porn is exploiting women/workers) *do* only apply to live-action stuff, but the rest of your post raises a good point.

Hrn. Though now you have me curious and wanting to look up sexual violence rates-is it *worse* now than, say, 30 years ago, with the advent of the internet? (Though it would be REALLY difficult to take into account different attitudes at that time. I suspect someone's got a thesis on this...). If someone knows of a good academic article on this, I could probably access it once I get back to campus tomorrow. I'll poke around a bit then, if I remember ad have the time.

I especially hadn't thought about the lack of being able to see a facial response (or hear a change in voice tone) w/respect to texting.

Sam: I'll give that video a watch later this weekend.

EDIT:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Just popping in, i haven't been ignoring this, but i want to take the time to make sure my response is as cogent and well thought out as i can.

And that's fair. Wouldn't want to go of all half cocked. (I'm sorry I really couldn't resist.)
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you might start by checking what the women they were interviewing (Catherine Steiner-Adair) has done - sounds like she's an academic, so she's probably got other pubs.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
you might start by checking what the women they were interviewing (Catherine Steiner-Adair) has done - sounds like she's an academic, so she's probably got other pubs.


Will do. Granted, given that it's not my field, I admit I fear the result may be along the lines of:

[img] http://i.qkme.me/3s28ph.jpg [/img]
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if she's a _real_ academic, she'll have tables.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also sorry I haven't gotten to reading those yet. Life are hectic here. Also upcomming wedding keeps distracting me. XD
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DRINKS ALL AROUND!


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