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Aug. 5: Super Saiya Fabulous
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
Apparently stereotypes are okay now?


you act as though this is the first time this has happened.


Eh, it's not, this stereotype has always just really rubbed me the wrong way, I suppose. Not sure why.

EDIT:

stripeypants wrote:
*Snipped so my post doesn't become a page devouring monster.


Fair enough. I guess, having had it hammered into me that it's *wrong* to stereotype people, seeing folks portray, well, gay people in this fashion makes me kind of =/. On further thought, I suppose I've placed in the same category of "Black people always have big lips and love chicken and watermelon and purple drink" sets of stereotypes, which may be why my initial reaction is "Really?"

HOWEVER, I do not have your life perspective/the life perspective of other non heterosexual cisgendered folks. I grew up (and am) a white, heterosexual, cis male, so I do not have your perspective. (And I suspect even if I were not heterosexual or cis, I would have been a fortunate and atypical case: I'm pretty sure my parents and my social groups and the church I grew up in would have been fully supporting of me), so you've given me some food for thought.
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Onimaru



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked today's comic simply because Sinfest's Gay Guy is a fun character, a personality that is comfortable with who he is at any point, but doesn't go out of his way to make his business anybody else's business. Unless they're like Seymore and make it their business, then he has no problem showing exactly how little he cares for others opinions on the matter of his personal life, usually still maintaining a smile all the while. It's nice to see a confident openly gay character, even if at times he does portray some sterotypes, I don't think he portrays them negatively.
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Timpie



Joined: 28 Jul 2013
Posts: 92
Location: Mainland Europe - Belgium

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ach! His flamboyant style makes me question my boring conservative dressing ways, my shirt's already shifting into a mauve tint!
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Varthonai



Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little nervous to post again after the way the last thread I posted in went, but I don't know how long it'll be before the next Gay Guy comic, and I have a whole lot of things to say pent up that have been bothering me for a long time...

stripeypants wrote:
However, these things are lacking in so much media (even though things have improved a great deal) that I celebrate when something appears right in at least some aspect, even if it isn't ideal. Even if it has big problems. I pick up that aspect and I hug it. I feed it cookies and butter and whatever else I've got on hand that is a worthy treat, so that one day it will grow up and become a BIG aspect, and will go on to do big, beautiful, not problematic things.


Are we really so starved for positive gay characters in the media that we still need to compromise our integrity like that to this extent?

I could understand better if the problem was something particularly obscure to the general public, but the problems with Gay Guy are obvious. He's a nameless Magical Queer whose main narrative purposes are a) to enthusiastically serve the sympathetic members of the not-explicitly-queer cast, and b) to make the unsympathetic not-explicitly-queer cast uncomfortable, so that we can laugh at their expense and congratulate ourselves on not being as obvious about our homophobia as all those bad people are, haha, we are comfortable listening to Gay Guy's silly slash fics and Slick isn't and that means we are great allies.

Reading Gay Guy strips, I cringe and get overtones that kinda remind me of the feeling I get watching one-note poorly-researched POC sidekicks to white protagonists, like Tonto and Short Round; that is to say, the character is defined almost entirely by how he serves, or fails to serve, the various "normal" folks who have societal advantages over him, token appearances by his boyfriend notwithstanding. Being gay becomes cheap novelty value for such a character. "Haha, he's gay, how quaint, how quirky!"

While gay characters are by no means as prevalent or richly developed in media as they ought to be, there are plenty of gay characters that are past the specific and rather horrendous stage of caricature that Gay Guy is stuck on, so I have trouble understanding how you could see such a character as anything other than a step backward. I could have related to the take-what-you-can-get sentiment if SinFest had been written in the early 90’s maybe, but this is 2013, it's not "progress" anymore. : /

(I have this same problem with a lot of members of the Sisterhood too, though not to nearly the same extent because we occasionally get bits like Xanthe and her sister and the bike repair arc, so their characters are not entirely based around men)

There's so much more that ought to be going on with Gay Guy that's not being explored. He's male, for starters, and the nature of his intersecting privileges and lacks thereof hasn't been touched on at all (note how with Squiggly and Lil E, we've seen some intersectionality between their being male and being anthropigs/devilkids/whatever, which aren't even real things you can be and yet take precedence over Gay Guy apparently).

For instance, how would Lil Sis interact with Gay Guy? Would she take his maleness as sufficient reason to harass him, the way that she seemed to do with Buddha? Would she recognize him as a fellow marginalized person within the gender binary and treat him as such? If she made an effort to be friendly towards him, would she perhaps do what an awful lot of straight ciswomen are inclined to do--treat him as "one of the girls" in a misguided attempt to rationalize their platonic bond and distinguish him from the "real men" that she dislikes?

I would like to see this, but Tat seems more interested in keeping Gay Guy as a lighthearted sideshow than a human being with problems, and everyone except for Felgraf seems more than happy to keep making excuses for him. As Onimaru points out, he’s a “fun character”, just like how Monique used to be “fun”, and wow don't we all wish she was still fun like she used to be before the Sisterhood ruined everything amirite
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 1103
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THIS THIMBLE

IT HAS A FROG ON IT


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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, yes, I think we are still rather starved for queer characters, particularly well written ones who are living their own lives for the sake of living them. I don't think Gay Guy is a great character, and if I had my way, he would either not exist or would be very, very different.

What I was trying to say is this:
1. Tat has improved the character from the way he used to be; for instance, Gay Guy was shown knitting a marriage equality flag, and also had a sunday strip of his own where he was shown meeting up with another gay person whom he was attracted to. That is some very slow, small progress. Which is not to say that Tat deserves big kudos for his portrayal of a gay person, or that other people don't make problematic comments in response to Gay Guy.

2. There are almost no things in the media I can find that are not problematic. Something might be nearly perfect - but then randomly it'll go all ableist, or classist, or misogynistic, or homophobic, or transphobic, or any other brand of bigotry. I tried for a couple years not to read or watch anything problematic. It was a very boring, sad time. Therefore, I resigned myself to interact with media while acknowledging "This thing here is wrong."

(On a related note, if I had my way the 'Trans State' thing would not be called 'Trans State.' Also, Tat hasn't shown any trans characters, only straight characters cross-dressing. Squig cross-dresses for old fashioned unenlightened laughs. There are good points and bad points to it, and unanswered questions. I'm waiting to see what Tat writes in the future.)

3. I was explaining why I'm giving the character a pass for now. Other people don't have to, but Felgraf asked so I offered my rationale. I don't want my opinion to be the last word on the subject.



Also, I hope you'll continue sharing your opinion here.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10654
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before people start "taking sides":

Hey Mr. Meddler, are you still gay?

******************


Anyway, I was kinda under the impression that Gay Guy was a militant sort of homosexual in the same manner other militant social groups are (vegans come to mind); he purposefully and directly confronts the other characters with their preconceived notions by exaggerating certain aspects of himself.

I also took the entire strip to be a joke based on the phrase "super gay", a phrase people seem to use when they someone is REALLY gay.

I've made jokes myself when I've heard this, as in (addressing the person who uses the term 'super gay') "What do you mean by 'super gay'? Are you saying he's flies and leaves trails of rainbows?" or something to that effect, basically mocking their preconceived notions.

Varthonai: when you were talking about the reading the Gay Guy strips, did you skip over his interactions with Xanthe? Oh and what Stripey said, keep posting your opinions.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 1103
Location: Hel

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THIS THIMBLE IS A CAT


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Lilith



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Night Spade wrote:
I bet his Clothes Beam is 100 times more awesome than Piccolo's. Very Happy


That is easily his most metro attack.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THIS THIMBLE IS A RABBIT


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Timpie



Joined: 28 Jul 2013
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Location: Mainland Europe - Belgium

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sisterhood would probably leave him be, he has good relations with Nana and doesn't look like the guy to go harass and go intrude on women's only spaces.

Gay guy's gotten some decent characterisation next to the blatant 'insert gay for punchline' gag strips. Doesn't remove or excuse them, but saying he's only here for those is not really true.

I'd like to see a full moon strip about a Sisterhood character though. See what they turn into.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AND THIS THIMBLE



IS SHERLOCK HOLMES
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17581
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
THIS THIMBLE IS A CAT



that cat appears to have antennae. which would confirm some things i suspect about cats.

as for gay guy - he may be following the path of a lot of characters, i.e., starting as a stereotyped bit player and then developing more personality as he gets more screen time. we can hope.
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Varthonai



Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I was explaining why I'm giving the character a pass for now. Other people don't have to, but Felgraf asked so I offered my rationale. I don't want my opinion to be the last word on the subject.


Ok, fair enough. My main point of contention was that I had interpreted "give a pass" to mean "find to be as good or better than my general lowered-by-cynicism expectations for portrayals of gays in 2013", but now it sounds like it actually meant something more like "terrible, but not terrible enough to make me quit reading SinFest in protest".

Timpie wrote:
The sisterhood would probably leave him be, he has good relations with Nana and doesn't look like the guy to go harass and go intrude on women's only spaces.


I didn't mean the Sisterhood as a whole, I meant specifically Lil Sis. Buddha doesn't look like the guy to go harass and intrude on women's only spaces either but that didn't stop Lil Sis.
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knappetroll



Joined: 20 Oct 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
AND THIS THIMBLE



IS SHERLOCK HOLMES


Is that even a thimble?
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