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2013-09-06: Peak Dudebro
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9559

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and it is that, actually, really and truly, patriarchy hurts men too.

which is why to be a feminist for the sake of all, and why if you are a mans, not to assume ever that you are being a feminist at any sort of sacrificial detriment of the self.

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The Idiot



Joined: 24 Mar 2010
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
OH SHIT SON BUT I AM GOING TO MAKE A SERIOUS POST NOW


Not that I follow this forum too regular, but wouldn't that be a first in this sub forum?
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10588
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varthonai wrote:
I have a whole bunch of problems with a lot of aspects of all the strips with this particular theme, and with everyone's reactions to them, but right now I'm still too much of a coward to talk about most of them, and I'm also not confident in my ability to articulate my issues without making people feel like it's just a retread of debates that had already been had on these forums a million times before I got my account Embarassed

Maybe I will figure out an appropriate way to discuss it and get up the nerve to get into it another time. For now I'm just going to stick to what I'm pretty sure are the two most inoffensive questions on my mind and leave the rest alone.

1) When and why exactly did 'dudebro' come to be synonymous with 'misogynist', instead of just gregarious people who affectionately refer to their friends with the terms Dude and Bro a lot?

2) Is it too late to reclaim the original meaning? : (


It goes something like "You can be a dude, and you can be a bro, but don't be a dudebro."

As I've interpreted it, a dudebro isn't merely just a misogynist, there's a certain degree of ignorance and stupidity as well, coupled with the propensity to make their idiotic opinions known publicly, and exacerbated by a tenacious unwillingness to listen or recognize opinions or facts that contradict, undermine, or outright disprove what they think and believe; a misogynist might just give you a dirty look, a dudebro will tell you why he's doing so and try to make you feel bad at the same time.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
@Felgraf: The dinglebros who scream the argument BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN don't do it because they're so in equality, but because they want to derail. They even use it as a counterargument despite the fact that two wrongs don't make a right.

Example: woman raped in India. BUT MEN GET RAPED TOO. as if they expect people to go: oh shit that's right, well silly us what are we getting worked up for.

Said dinglebros also don't care about Gay Guy at all. Homophobic dingebros would more likely consider him effiminate and thus not 'a real man'.


Aye, as I realized as my post went on, this was *likely* what it was making fun of.

I guess part of it was a mental juxtoposition with the last comic that was also causing a bit if 'eh?' in my mind. And because I know we *have* had serious discussions about how patriarchy does hurt men on these forums (and, in some threads, NOT in a "LET'S IGNORE WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE WOMEN, WHAT ABOUT MEN TOOO?!) fashion.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeedy.

Also I just wondered something. Sleaze is holding a tomato. Does that mean he frequents Nique's performances? Is he the one who usually swears and throws tomatoes? But then again, Nique would have to recognize him and call him out for it. Hmmm.

I'm still not sure if people can actually see Sleaze.
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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:

In the past, I've been told that gay guy could be considered an ally/etc because he, as a non-heterosexual male, is also harmed by the patriarchy.

... Is this comic saying we shouldn't really give his plight much concern, 'cause he's a male/guy?

... Eh I suspect I am reading too much into this. Likely, the post was meant to represent an *insincere* desire to point out how the patriarchy hurts men. It was perhaps, not, say, supposed to be representative of a person wanting to point out how the patriarchy also hurts men as a *additional* reason to take it down.


It's not just the derailing thing, in my opinion. I've seen the context for this 'but the patriarchy hurts men too!' thing, often in some variant of the following:

- "But men are expected to be buff and manly and to never cry, they're discriminated against too! Men have to pay for dinners and stuff!"
- "But if a man gets raped it's even more likely that nobody believes him or says he must have enjoyed it!"

...And, in my experience, the feminist response would often be something like 'well no DUH, it hurts men too. That's another reason you should be trying to HELP us! Then no more ridiculously rigid patriarchal gender standards for anybody! That shit only happens because men are expected to be sex-crazed horndogs and that confining box can be just as damaging to them as the standards enforced on women can be to them!!'

It's not a matter of a pissing context about who gets hurt more. It's about the fact that the very issue they have listed as a "but" is part of the problem feminism is trying to combat.

In the words of an excellent blogger I can't remember the name of, these men aren't being discriminated against, the patriarchy is just backfiring on them, but they're too chock-full of their own privilege to see it for what it is. That's the reason it's frustrating, not that somebody is trying to talk about someone else being hurt. So yeah

Felgraf wrote:
I can't imagine it would be trying to claim that simply pointing out the patriarchy hurts men and woman alike (even if not *EQUALLY*) means one must be a dudebro?


While someone doing that may not necessarily be as far as a dudebro, they are displaying an awful lot of ignorance and privilege.
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redrose



Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
I think what Tat is saying, judging by panel 3, is that all the dudebro whining and "issues" can be traced back to guys with the mentality of "ME! ME! ME!"


This is what I gathered too. it's not saying men don't face problems too. But instead of trying to be understanding, they're making it all about them.

When a woman talks about her problems. They immediately turn it around and start talking about their issues and how they're affected. Instead of listening to her or trying to help her.

'Yes you get pay less, but the Patriarchy also does mean things to us men!' instead off, 'That's really unfair, maybe we can all work to change it.'
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redrose wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
I think what Tat is saying, judging by panel 3, is that all the dudebro whining and "issues" can be traced back to guys with the mentality of "ME! ME! ME!"


This is what I gathered too. it's not saying men don't face problems too. But instead of trying to be understanding, they're making it all about them.

When a woman talks about her problems. They immediately turn it around and start talking about their issues and how they're affected. Instead of listening to her or trying to help her.

'Yes you get pay less, but the Patriarchy also does mean things to us men!' instead off, 'That's really unfair, maybe we can all work to change it.'


Yeah, I began to realize midway through my post that this was the kind of thing it was talking about-not just, say, exploring how the patriarchy harmed men in general. I agree a but-me-too mentality is counterproductive and unhelpful.

Hekateras wrote:
Felgraf wrote:

In the past, I've been told that gay guy could be considered an ally/etc because he, as a non-heterosexual male, is also harmed by the patriarchy.

... Is this comic saying we shouldn't really give his plight much concern, 'cause he's a male/guy?

... Eh I suspect I am reading too much into this. Likely, the post was meant to represent an *insincere* desire to point out how the patriarchy hurts men. It was perhaps, not, say, supposed to be representative of a person wanting to point out how the patriarchy also hurts men as a *additional* reason to take it down.


It's not just the derailing thing, in my opinion. I've seen the context for this 'but the patriarchy hurts men too!' thing, often in some variant of the following:

- "But men are expected to be buff and manly and to never cry, they're discriminated against too! Men have to pay for dinners and stuff!"
- "But if a man gets raped it's even more likely that nobody believes him or says he must have enjoyed it!"

...And, in my experience, the feminist response would often be something like 'well no DUH, it hurts men too. That's another reason you should be trying to HELP us! Then no more ridiculously rigid patriarchal gender standards for anybody! That shit only happens because men are expected to be sex-crazed horndogs and that confining box can be just as damaging to them as the standards enforced on women can be to them!!'

It's not a matter of a pissing context about who gets hurt more. It's about the fact that the very issue they have listed as a "but" is part of the problem feminism is trying to combat.

In the words of an excellent blogger I can't remember the name of, these men aren't being discriminated against, the patriarchy is just backfiring on them, but they're too chock-full of their own privilege to see it for what it is. That's the reason it's frustrating, not that somebody is trying to talk about someone else being hurt. So yeah

Felgraf wrote:
I can't imagine it would be trying to claim that simply pointing out the patriarchy hurts men and woman alike (even if not *EQUALLY*) means one must be a dudebro?


While someone doing that may not necessarily be as far as a dudebro, they are displaying an awful lot of ignorance and privilege.


Your post feels a bit... contradictory? You say that of course the patriarchy hurts men and women (Even if it's just 'backfiring' against men... though in the case of non cis/non-hetero males, claiming it's just 'backfiring' seems a bit ignorant/dismissive) but discussing that is displaying ignorance and privilege?

Apologies, I am probably reading this wrong.
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Thenadathor



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really wish the comic made it more clear panel 3 was an instance of derailing, because just opposing statements like "patriarchy hurts men too" out of hand regardless of context does a disservice to intersectional feminism.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops wrong place.
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Varthonai



Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
I really wish the comic made it more clear panel 3 was an instance of derailing, because just opposing statements like "patriarchy hurts men too" out of hand regardless of context does a disservice to intersectional feminism.


This! This!!

And for the record every person I've ever talked to raising these points has been completely sincere, so this all feels like horrible straw manning. They are generally overzealous and impatient and so they cause more harm than good when they blunder into arguments but I've never encountered one like what's being described here: one who is just pretending to oppose the gender binary, solely for the purpose of shutting down a discussion about women's issues, not actually caring about men, engaged in a big conspiracy to inflict their daily quota of misogyny in the most unnecessarily roundabout way possible. They are always very willing to talk at length when I approach them privately outside of the thread where they were being shouted down, and they would certainly care a great deal about Gay Guy (specifically they would be concerned about many of the stereotypes of men that are amplified a thousandfold through the intersectionality of being male and gay, like pedophilia/not safe around children).

And the irony is that they have almost identical ridiculous straw men about feminists ("you don't really care about women's issues, you just want to hate on men!" "feminist going NAFALT, what else is new!"). I feel like for every 1 real person I talk to I see 100 straw men trying to convince me that they're not worth talking to in the first place and that even trying to talk is just fraternizing with the enemy. It's almost like there's some invisible force at work trying to divide people who are angry about the gender binary against... each other...

wait a second...
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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:

Hekateras wrote:
Felgraf wrote:

In the past, I've been told that gay guy could be considered an ally/etc because he, as a non-heterosexual male, is also harmed by the patriarchy.

... Is this comic saying we shouldn't really give his plight much concern, 'cause he's a male/guy?

... Eh I suspect I am reading too much into this. Likely, the post was meant to represent an *insincere* desire to point out how the patriarchy hurts men. It was perhaps, not, say, supposed to be representative of a person wanting to point out how the patriarchy also hurts men as a *additional* reason to take it down.


It's not just the derailing thing, in my opinion. I've seen the context for this 'but the patriarchy hurts men too!' thing, often in some variant of the following:

- "But men are expected to be buff and manly and to never cry, they're discriminated against too! Men have to pay for dinners and stuff!"
- "But if a man gets raped it's even more likely that nobody believes him or says he must have enjoyed it!"

...And, in my experience, the feminist response would often be something like 'well no DUH, it hurts men too. That's another reason you should be trying to HELP us! Then no more ridiculously rigid patriarchal gender standards for anybody! That shit only happens because men are expected to be sex-crazed horndogs and that confining box can be just as damaging to them as the standards enforced on women can be to them!!'

It's not a matter of a pissing context about who gets hurt more. It's about the fact that the very issue they have listed as a "but" is part of the problem feminism is trying to combat.

In the words of an excellent blogger I can't remember the name of, these men aren't being discriminated against, the patriarchy is just backfiring on them, but they're too chock-full of their own privilege to see it for what it is. That's the reason it's frustrating, not that somebody is trying to talk about someone else being hurt. So yeah

Felgraf wrote:
I can't imagine it would be trying to claim that simply pointing out the patriarchy hurts men and woman alike (even if not *EQUALLY*) means one must be a dudebro?


While someone doing that may not necessarily be as far as a dudebro, they are displaying an awful lot of ignorance and privilege.


Your post feels a bit... contradictory? You say that of course the patriarchy hurts men and women (Even if it's just 'backfiring' against men... though in the case of non cis/non-hetero males, claiming it's just 'backfiring' seems a bit ignorant/dismissive) but discussing that is displaying ignorance and privilege?

Apologies, I am probably reading this wrong.


The issue isn't discussing it, it's when and where it's done - and like I and others have pointed out, the problem isn't that these problems are being discussed, it's that they're discussed in opposition to the problems women are facing, with the implicit expectation of 'now you need to stop talking about this, because we're both suffering but you don't see ME complaining'. All in all, it has the implication that women are over-reacting to injustices that aren't unique to them at all.

The thing is, the patriarchy hurts both men and women, but men still profit disproportionately more from the patriarchy on average. More importantly, while the patriarchy is perpetuated and maintained by both men and women, the men are disproportionately more powerful in terms of being able to effect a change and have their voices heard. That is why men need to listen and try to see what they can do that a woman cannot, or cannot without much greater difficulty. Instead of derailing, they need to use their privilege well, and for that they need to listen to the people who, as the ones being more disadvantaged by the situation, usually have a keener insight of the mechanisms of injustice.

Quote:
(Even if it's just 'backfiring' against men... though in the case of non cis/non-hetero males, claiming it's just 'backfiring' seems a bit ignorant/dismissive)


Can you elaborate on how it was ignorant or dismissive? While I agree it sounds harsh, men (i.e. people who outwardly appear and are assumed to be men, which would include any FTM trans and non-hetero males who more or less try to 'fit in' with the male cishet masses) can and do profit from the patriarchy at those times when they're not displaying behaviour that the patriarchy frowns upon, as opposed to a cis or trans woman whose instances of profiting from the patriarchy are vanishingly rare.

More to the point, a gay man can have internalised misogynist behaviours as much as a heterosexual man. I wish I could say that FTM trans must be more sensitive to issues of misogyny because they're familiar with the other side's perspective from their upbringing, but considering how widespread internalised misogyny is among cis women, it's far from a given.

As a whole, the patriarchy is maintained to continue benefitting men who fit a certain profile, and to exploit women of any profile whatsoever. As such, it's not a perfect system from the perspective of the male population but it's still skewed to benefit the males. When males suffer in it, it is because it is imperfect the way every system is imperfect.


Quote:

This! This!!

And for the record every person I've ever talked to raising these points has been completely sincere, so this all feels like horrible straw manning. They are generally overzealous and impatient and so they cause more harm than good when they blunder into arguments but I've never encountered one like what's being described here: one who is just pretending to oppose the gender binary, solely for the purpose of shutting down a discussion about women's issues, not actually caring about men, engaged in a big conspiracy to inflict their daily quota of misogyny in the most unnecessarily roundabout way possible.


Just wanted to point out that the comic itself doesn't mention intersectional feminism (at least, if intersectionalism with the LGBT+ community is what you're referring to) or trans or queer or non-binary or homosexual people at all. So calling it out - if I understood you correctly - on strawmanning seems to involve quite a few assumptions, IMHO.


Last edited by Hekateras on Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wolfo



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dug out my absolutely incredibly old account to post.

I seriously, seriously fucking hope this is all leading up to one giant joke with middle fingers going off everywhere.

Because this shit isn't sinfest anymore. There's only a "real" sinfest comic once every 2-5 weeks now.

What happened to God-puppet?
What about the ridiculous tension between 'Nique and Slick that wasn't just an abusive "you're a misogynistic jackass?"
What happened to 'Nique being slutty mcslut that abused the "patriarchy" for her own gain, and empowered herself on her own free will?
What about the fucking matriarchy arcs?
What about the geopolitical comics that commented and satired current events?
Why the hell did Li'l E end up amnesia'ing and turning into a pussy when he was built as such a pure little dick?
What about when the femnazi girls were plugged in as joke characters that had no purpose other than to serve a punchline?

Seriously, either Tat has been going incredibly far to set up the most elaborate and incredible joke ever, or he's devolved into tumblr circlejerk shit.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2781
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
I really wish the comic made it more clear panel 3 was an instance of derailing, because just opposing statements like "patriarchy hurts men too" out of hand regardless of context does a disservice to intersectional feminism.


I don't completely understand this. How is 1 feminist who is just tired of dinglebros spamming forums under with derailing arguments a disservice to intersectional feminism? She's not against that one sentence and its meaning, she's against the barrage of spam and general douchebaggery.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfo wrote:
Dug out my absolutely incredibly old account to post.

I seriously, seriously fucking hope this is all leading up to one giant joke with middle fingers going off everywhere.

Because this shit isn't sinfest anymore. There's only a "real" sinfest comic once every 2-5 weeks now.

What happened to God-puppet?
What about the ridiculous tension between 'Nique and Slick that wasn't just an abusive "you're a misogynistic jackass?"
What happened to 'Nique being slutty mcslut that abused the "patriarchy" for her own gain, and empowered herself on her own free will?
What about the fucking matriarchy arcs?
What about the geopolitical comics that commented and satired current events?
Why the hell did Li'l E end up amnesia'ing and turning into a pussy when he was built as such a pure little dick?
What about when the femnazi girls were plugged in as joke characters that had no purpose other than to serve a punchline?

Seriously, either Tat has been going incredibly far to set up the most elaborate and incredible joke ever, or he's devolved into tumblr circlejerk shit.



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