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2013-09-16: Glitter Point
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Ashami



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
Ah, behaviour modification. Good point. Certainly less morally dubious than 1984-style forced re-education. Unless glitter points have some effect on the mind of the recipient, so that the angels are constrained from giving them to someone on a path of self-reformation, since that has nothing to do with godishness. It's conceivable that a high enough dose of glitter in this setting might confer 'grace', in the (aptly!) Christian sense - making it possible to resist the impulses of Fallen nature, and all the rest. But then he would only be resisting pornography through the grace of God, rather than through his own powers; for which reason he wouldn't earn any cookies.


Pfft!! Ha ha ha! 1984! Thank you! That was good for a laugh.

First of all, in the Sinfest world, no one does much of anything by the grace of God (who is just another dudebro). People act based on their own internal motivations and insight. Slick is motivated to change, but lacks insight (that he objectifies women via porn). No one is really helping him with this insight, but instead he's being punished (i.e. mocked) for his lack of it. He did something that was obviously hard for him and basically told it doesn't count. This is stupid. Rather than mocking him, he should be congratulated and given guidance. This will motivate him to continue resisting his addiction. Isn't that what the Sisterhood wants?

Let me ask it this way. There are three basic options here:

1) Slick can continue to objectify women via porn
2) Slick can stop objectifying women via porn in order to earn admiration of the Sisterhood, or
3) Slick can stop objectifying women via porn based on internal ethical principles

Considering that #3 isn't on the table right now, isn't option #2 far superior to #1? If so, shouldn't Slick be rewarded for it, even if it isn't as admirable as #3? The entire point shouldn't be to create a world of ethically perfect people, it should be to reduce misogyny as much as possible. And if the Sisterhood believes that this can be accomplished with getting dudebros to stop watching porn, then that should be considered a victory, even if short of perfection.


Last edited by Ashami on Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, that points to the main question about Slick's motivation for changing his ways: is he doing it because he thinks it's the right thing to do, or is he doing it because he's getting cookies for it?

those things aren't mutually exclusive, but i think it's pretty clear that the Sisterhood wants him to change his ways because he thinks it's the right thing to do. if all he's doing this for is cookies and glitter, then how do you know his attitudes and beliefs have changed?
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Ashami



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
well, that points to the main question about Slick's motivation for changing his ways: is he doing it because he thinks it's the right thing to do, or is he doing it because he's getting cookies for it?

those things aren't mutually exclusive, but i think it's pretty clear that the Sisterhood wants him to change his ways because he thinks it's the right thing to do. if all he's doing this for is cookies and glitter, then how do you know his attitudes and beliefs have changed?


People don't make major shifts in worldview in one gulp, especially when they are being mocked for imperfection. People change in baby steps. The ultimate goal is, naturally, for Slick to adopt internal ethical commitments. But he should be rewarded for every step he makes towards that goal, not mocked for failing to make the entire journey in one leap.
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashami wrote:
merest wrote:
Ah, behaviour modification. Good point. Certainly less morally dubious than 1984-style forced re-education. Unless glitter points have some effect on the mind of the recipient, so that the angels are constrained from giving them to someone on a path of self-reformation, since that has nothing to do with godishness. It's conceivable that a high enough dose of glitter in this setting might confer 'grace', in the (aptly!) Christian sense - making it possible to resist the impulses of Fallen nature, and all the rest. But then he would only be resisting pornography through the grace of God, rather than through his own powers; for which reason he wouldn't earn any cookies.


Pfft!! Ha ha ha! 1984! Thank you! That was good for a laugh.

First of all, in the Sinfest world, no one does much of anything by the grace of God (who is just another dudebro). People act based on their own internal motivations and insight. Slick is motivated to change, but lacks insight (that he objectifies women via porn). No one is really helping him with this insight, but instead he's being punished (i.e. mocked) for his lack of it. He did something that was obviously hard for him and basically told it doesn't count. This is stupid. Rather than mocking him, he should be congratulated and given guidance. This will motivate him to continue resisting his addiction. Isn't that what the Sisterhood wants?


You're welcome! (I was thinking of the indoctrination plants shown in this comic, where people are forced to look at screens depicting propaganda of various sorts. Perhaps I should have said 'Clockwork Orange -style'.)

As for grace - well, you're probably right. Certainly God is just another dudebro. Yet God's glitter does seem to have some sort of power, comparable to the effects of apple of knowledge, Lethe-water, or zen-zap, and devil-bomf. These latter things do seem able to transform people's minds, however briefly. Might not enough glitter do the same? I can see why Mr. Ishida might be disinterested in the possibility, of course, since it's a bit irrelevant to his message, and not automatically entertaining.

Anyway, yeah, it would be ideal were he helped along according to the principles of behaviour modification, since his reform is good for everyone. Slick could probably take care of that _himself,_ without needing the Sisterhood to hold his hand, were he only seeing a decent therapist. For self-reward is possible! But I guess he likes basking in the esteem of others, like most people, making the cookie only the tip of the, er, cookie-iceberg.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashami wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
well, that points to the main question about Slick's motivation for changing his ways: is he doing it because he thinks it's the right thing to do, or is he doing it because he's getting cookies for it?

those things aren't mutually exclusive, but i think it's pretty clear that the Sisterhood wants him to change his ways because he thinks it's the right thing to do. if all he's doing this for is cookies and glitter, then how do you know his attitudes and beliefs have changed?


People don't make major shifts in worldview in one gulp, especially when they are being mocked for imperfection. People change in baby steps. The ultimate goal is, naturally, for Slick to adopt internal ethical commitments. But he should be rewarded for every step he makes towards that goal, not mocked for failing to make the entire journey in one leap.


that doesn't get to the question i asked, though. is he just out to get cookies and glitter, or is he changing his mind because he thinks it's right?

if it's the former, then he's not actually taking steps towards adopting internal ethical commitments in the first place.
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Ashami



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
But I guess he likes basking in the esteem of others, like most people, making the cookie only the tip of the, er, cookie-iceberg.


Certainly Slick's motivations are immature at this point. But how could they be otherwise? Dudebro-ism is inherently immature.

By way of analogy, young children don't clean their room because they have a strong internal motivation to live in a neat and tidy space, it's because they enjoy reward of their parents (as well as a desire to avoid their wrath!). It isn't until they grow up and mature that they (potentially) learn to care about cleanliness.

Slick's "salvation" begins with caring about what the Sisterhood thinks...if they want him to adopt their view of things, they need to help him mature and that isn't done by mocking him. It just makes them look petty.

Think about it: if a 6 year old cleans his room well and then says "Hey look, Mommy! Did I do good? Can I have a hug?" should his mother respond with "Meh. Here's half a cookie..." simply because the child's motivation isn't perfectly internalized? I would call that crappy parenting. Wouldn't you?
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Ashami



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
that doesn't get to the question i asked, though. is he just out to get cookies and glitter, or is he changing his mind because he thinks it's right? if it's the former, then he's not actually taking steps towards adopting internal ethical commitments in the first place.


What's wrong with wanting the acceptance and admiration of others? He's looking for that to tell him that he's on the right path. By being mocked and rejected, he is being told that he's doing something wrong, but not what. And consider that dudebro-ism is inherently immature...immature people rarely have strong internal commitments. Such commitments usually grow because the learn over time that ethical *behavior* is rewarding in itself. But that can often take time to realize.

Think of it like this. Change of this kind involves multiple critical objectives. The first objective is to get Slick to stop objectifying women via porn. It doesn't matter why he does this at this point...the point is to begin by breaking the initial pattern of negative behavior. The next critical objective, I think, would be to develop a subjective view of women. The final critical objective would be to adopt attitudes and behavior that promote gender equality (which is the goal here, right?). Each of these goals requires unique efforts and methods. Those methods do not include mockery.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

is the acceptance and admiration of others really what Slick wants?

the whole point is that he doesn't get what it is he's being asked to do. his entire approach to the whole thing is flawed. he thinks it's just a matter abstaining from porn, and since he did that for a week, he thinks he deserves credit. well, no, it wasn't what he's supposed to do, which is why he gets half a point for it. he's "getting mocked" (and i don't buy that this is mockery in the first place) because he isn't even on the road to changing what he believes. he's not going to change anyway, because he doesn't understand what the change is that he has to make.

which is perfectly in character for Slick. we've seen before, when he tries to improve himself, well, he's just full of shit, and he doesn't really want to do it.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6507

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I don't think the angels have mocked a single person in the entire run of the comic... I really don't know why they would start now.

(I'm way too lazy to try and verify this, but I really can't recall them mocking anyone ever.)
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lostinube



Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But they're not saying "Meh." They're saying "Yay!" They're not mocking him, they're just giving him a reward that is in line with what he has accomplished (in their opinion).

Also, the angels are not a part of the Sisterhood. The cookie Slick received previously came from Nana, not from above.
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Ashami



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
his entire approach to the whole thing is flawed.


Of course it is. Why would anyone expect perfection? And is a lack of perfection a reason to not to give credit where it is due?

ShadowCell wrote:
is the acceptance and admiration of others really what Slick wants?


It seems that way to me.

ShadowCell wrote:
the whole point is that he doesn't get what it is he's being asked to do.


He has only been asked to not watch porn. He did that. Why should he punished for not getting it all right straight out of the box?

ShadowCell wrote:
his entire approach to the whole thing is flawed.


Who begins anything without flaw? The point I've been making is that Slick should be rewarded for what he does right (not objectify women via porn) and guided in the areas where he needs growth. That's how you teach people.

ShadowCell wrote:
he thinks it's just a matter abstaining from porn, and since he did that for a week, he thinks he deserves credit. well, no, it wasn't what he's supposed to do, which is why he gets half a point for it.


So because he doesn't have perfect insight or moral perfection, he only gets "half a point" for what was obviously a very difficult thing for him to do? That's very harsh and a poor way to inspire people to continue learning and growing.

ShadowCell wrote:
he's "getting mocked" (and i don't buy that this is mockery in the first place) because he isn't even on the road to changing what he believes. he's not going to change anyway, because he doesn't understand what the change is that he has to make.


That is both cynical and unreflective of how people actually change. He *is* on the road to change...he took a big step by stopping a toxic behavior. That's what he was able to do. Why should be be punished for not being able to do more?

ShadowCell wrote:
which is perfectly in character for Slick. we've seen before, when he tries to improve himself, well, he's just full of shit, and he doesn't really want to do it.


No, he would be full of shit if he stopped watching videos and only looked at skin mags and still wanted credit. He really did stop consuming porn. He set a goal for himself and he accomplished it. Demanding motivational and ethical perfection is both unrealistic and counterproductive. Slick is doing something that is hard for him...people don't do that unless they are really trying to change. He isn't asking for money, or sex, or power...he's only asking for admiration. And withholding it for lack of perfection is just snotty.
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Jody



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HE was the one doing the demanding.

See, if he gets rewarded for doing it for the wrong reasons, he'll think those are the *right* reasons. Which will skew and corrupt his motivation.

Simple, really. To someone that isn't bound and determined not to get it, anyway. Smile
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm not sure why you think everyone is "demanding ethical perfection" out of Slick. especially since he isn't actually being mocked; he's being given the reward he deserves for the thing that he achieved. and the thing he achieved is pretty damn meaningless. after all, he's played this game before and it turned out he was full of it. so call me when he shows that he's serious.

you seem to be taking it very personally that nobody lavishes praise on him for not looking at porn for a week, for a character that's already been defined as one who doesn't really mean it when he says he's going to change.
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lostinube



Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question

He was actually asking for a cookie. He was rewarded...by a different entity. Not the cookie granting one. And although that reward was meager it was still a reward. One given sincerely without any extra moralizing attached.
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashami wrote:
Think about it: if a 6 year old cleans his room well and then says "Hey look, Mommy! Did I do good? Can I have a hug?" should his mother respond with "Meh. Here's half a cookie..." simply because the child's motivation isn't perfectly internalized? I would call that crappy parenting. Wouldn't you?


I would. But the angels aren't his parents, and he is an adult. So this analogy is flawed.

On the other hand, I don't think that any sort of hardline, you're-on-your-own stance is cogent when it comes to ethics; for ethics is inherently social and reciprocal, both entailing responsibilities and attentions to those around one, and receiving such responsibilities and attentions in return. That said, he HAS been getting cookies from the Sisterhood, and half a glitter point is probably all he deserves; he hasn't done anything positive, just refrained from something negative. His reform has a long way to go. Were I in the angels' position, I'd give him more out of kindness and a wish to encourage him; but I'm not aghast that they are stingy.
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