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2013-09-22: Garden of Eden
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
enchantedsleeper wrote:
I've always held with the theory that this is Lilith (and wasn't it in the tags or something?). But in that case, what is the significance of the forbidden fruit for her? If she never Fell, why do we still see her being tempted in the same way Eve was?


well, if she was never tempted, there is no significance in her not falling. if you are never offered something, you get no credit for refusing it.

and samsally, that is a powerful story. it's the sort of story that might wake up a few men, who never really thought of what impact the biblical portrayal of eve might have on women.

(i'm also in awe of your perception at that age. i was probably still fixated on getting all the animals into noah's ark.)


Some. There is a depressingly large contingent who unapologetically believe that narrative, and use it to justify female subservience as God's will, either as outright punishment for Eve's choice, or as a natural consequence of it.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, yes - there is that contingent that use whatever they can find in the bible to put women down. i'm thinking of the less radical ones - the ones who have just grown up with that story and not worrying too much about it because it's just a story and not realizing that even "just stories" can have considerable resonance.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, oh man, I wouldn't be in awe of that shit. I really did cry a LOT as a kid, and in this case I've had literally years and years to finally piece together why. I'm not sure my actual thoughts at the time were so concise, that's just the closest I can come up with that really touches on how I felt. Thanks, though.

Also, I cannot agree more. "Just a story" is such a myth. Stories are so powerful for so many different reasons. I mean, stories that everybody knows are powerful because they sort of set the stage... but even stuff like fanfiction and video game story lines and everything else. There's so much information buried in them beyond just the most obvious. The good stories that really touch people... even in the crappiest narratives. None of it is completely divorced from the world it was created in.

I just have a lot of feelings about stories, guys.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Haha, oh man, I wouldn't be in awe of that shit. I really did cry a LOT as a kid, and in this case I've had literally years and years to finally piece together why. I'm not sure my actual thoughts at the time were so concise, that's just the closest I can come up with that really touches on how I felt. Thanks, though.

Also, I cannot agree more. "Just a story" is such a myth. Stories are so powerful for so many different reasons. I mean, stories that everybody knows are powerful because they sort of set the stage... but even stuff like fanfiction and video game story lines and everything else. There's so much information buried in them beyond just the most obvious. The good stories that really touch people... even in the crappiest narratives. None of it is completely divorced from the world it was created in.

I just have a lot of feelings about stories, guys.


Meeee toooooooo! Story feels!

And yes, they're powerful. Myth and fairy tale and urban legend. Studying them all is so, so fascinating.

Also TV Tropes. No, seriously. One of the best compilations of the myriad most common micro-narratives we run into all the freaking time.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't even want to know how many hours I've lost in tvtropes.org, hahaha.

It's a lot.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I lose less now than I used to. Mostly because I've already been through enough of the pages now that I don't have to open -quite- so many tabs per page anymore, since some of them I've seen.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best current example I can think of regarding 'just a story' is a recent video game that featured asians as the villains. A bunch of white people announced on Twitter that they now hated Asians and wanted to kill them.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
The best current example I can think of regarding 'just a story' is a recent video game that featured asians as the villains. A bunch of white people announced on Twitter that they now hated Asians and wanted to kill them.


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Istancow



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The best current example I can think of regarding 'just a story' is a recent video game that featured asians as the villains. A bunch of white people announced on Twitter that they now hated Asians and wanted to kill them.


Well. Dearie me. I'd better go hide.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wait - are they sure those people weren't just the ones watching the miss america pageant?
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Korladis



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Haha, oh man, I wouldn't be in awe of that shit. I really did cry a LOT as a kid, and in this case I've had literally years and years to finally piece together why. I'm not sure my actual thoughts at the time were so concise, that's just the closest I can come up with that really touches on how I felt. Thanks, though.

Also, I cannot agree more. "Just a story" is such a myth. Stories are so powerful for so many different reasons. I mean, stories that everybody knows are powerful because they sort of set the stage... but even stuff like fanfiction and video game story lines and everything else. There's so much information buried in them beyond just the most obvious. The good stories that really touch people... even in the crappiest narratives. None of it is completely divorced from the world it was created in.

I just have a lot of feelings about stories, guys.

If stories held no power, we likely wouldn't tell them as much.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korladis wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Haha, oh man, I wouldn't be in awe of that shit. I really did cry a LOT as a kid, and in this case I've had literally years and years to finally piece together why. I'm not sure my actual thoughts at the time were so concise, that's just the closest I can come up with that really touches on how I felt. Thanks, though.

Also, I cannot agree more. "Just a story" is such a myth. Stories are so powerful for so many different reasons. I mean, stories that everybody knows are powerful because they sort of set the stage... but even stuff like fanfiction and video game story lines and everything else. There's so much information buried in them beyond just the most obvious. The good stories that really touch people... even in the crappiest narratives. None of it is completely divorced from the world it was created in.

I just have a lot of feelings about stories, guys.

If stories held no power, we likely wouldn't tell them as much.


Just sit right down, and you'll hear a tale,
of once upon a time, in a land far, far away,
of the best of times, of the worst of times,
as the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed,
of a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife,
of snakes and snails and puppy dogs tails and sugar and spice and everything nice,
on a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen,
as the Queen of Light took her bow and then she turned to go,
while the Prince of Peace embraced the gloom and walked the night alone,
while along the dark, twisting path the thief moved with the swiftness of a shadow fleeing the light,
while the lump of degenerated humanity, dressed only in filthy, waist-length hair mats, never moved under its own volition,
we live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far,
while the sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
mouse wrote:
enchantedsleeper wrote:
I've always held with the theory that this is Lilith (and wasn't it in the tags or something?). But in that case, what is the significance of the forbidden fruit for her? If she never Fell, why do we still see her being tempted in the same way Eve was?


well, if she was never tempted, there is no significance in her not falling. if you are never offered something, you get no credit for refusing it.

and samsally, that is a powerful story. it's the sort of story that might wake up a few men, who never really thought of what impact the biblical portrayal of eve might have on women.

(i'm also in awe of your perception at that age. i was probably still fixated on getting all the animals into noah's ark.)


Some. There is a depressingly large contingent who unapologetically believe that narrative, and use it to justify female subservience as God's will, either as outright punishment for Eve's choice, or as a natural consequence of it.

I was told - although I don't know if this is true, so don't go repeating it - that the use of epidurals in pregnant women to relieve pain took about 20 years after it become popular in other procedures because the Bible says the pain of childbirth is God's punishment to women, and was thus considered good or right or something else I don't understand because I'm an atheist.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

god does have a nasty insistence on punishing people who have nothing to do with the original misdeed - isn't there something somewhere about visiting his vengeance on some group's "sons and sons of sons, even unto the 7th generation"?

i'm not sure such grudge-holding is really becoming in an all-powerful being.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't speak to the overall rate of acceptance, but yes, there are people in certain Abrahamic cultures who believe that way and have and do resist the notion.
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