welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

2013-10-18 The Ringer
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3333

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sassafras wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:


If this is the kind of bad logic you're going to use here, you're gonna have a bad time.

"He hasn't proven he ISNT and there are some vague parallels ergo he is!"
Except that I didn't say he IS, I said that it was valid to be concerned that he MIGHT be, because the strip uses metaphor all the time and in this case looks an awful lot like a commonly-used metaphor that transphobes love. I honestly hope he isn't because I've loved the feminist turn the strip took and I don't want it to be TERF.


I didn't say you were one of those jerks who came over from shitty webcomics dawt com here to concern troll but you're using the tactics someone from there with a bit more intelligence might use to subtly be a jerk while maintaining plausible deniability.

See how that works?

Realistically though, TERF folks are rarely this subtle about their own bigotry, and fun strip or not sinfest is about as subtle as a looney toons mallet to the forehead so i think you're borrowing trouble.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sassafras



Joined: 10 Jun 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I didn't say you were one of those jerks who came over from shitty webcomics dawt com here to concern troll but you're using the tactics someone from there with a bit more intelligence might use to subtly be a jerk while maintaining plausible deniability.

See how that works?
I thought you were the one that said "vague parallels" were unreliable? The shitty webcomics fuckers are too busy talking shit about Questionable Content for having a trans character to try and craft an argument with any empathy towards trans people.

If you think I'm making too much of it, well fine. But this kind of thing happens all the damn time so forgive me if I'm a little paranoid that one more thing I enjoy might be turning hostile towards people like me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sinfest is always at least a little bit problematic if you choose to interpret it as such.

/empty statement
_________________
butts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3333

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sassafras wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I didn't say you were one of those jerks who came over from shitty webcomics dawt com here to concern troll but you're using the tactics someone from there with a bit more intelligence might use to subtly be a jerk while maintaining plausible deniability.

See how that works?
I thought you were the one that said "vague parallels" were unreliable? The shitty webcomics fuckers are too busy talking shit about Questionable Content for having a trans character to try and craft an argument with any empathy towards trans people.

If you think I'm making too much of it, well fine. But this kind of thing happens all the damn time so forgive me if I'm a little paranoid that one more thing I enjoy might be turning hostile towards people like me.


Thats exactly why I used it and said "see how that works?"

I don't REALLY think you're from there, I don't REALLY think you're just here to troll, but the logic you used to decry it as "sounds like TERF" is the exact same logic I used above and yknow what, its bad logic, and bad as i can be, there are people here who latch on to logic like that like a rabid dog with its jaw locked.

Which is why i said if you use bad logic like that here, you're gonna have a bad time.

Edit: And while I may think you're making too much of it, it's not really my place to make claims on how someone feels when exposed to something. I'm just pointing out that he's not handled the subject matter of the trans-gendered much at all. There was the trans zone bit, but no confirmed trans-gender characters, so we can't really extrapolate their reactions to them fairly. Someone might point out that the books the trike girl were handing out treaded into TERF territory, but the names could have just as easily been chosen for recognition value. Sort of a "These books are Feminist Literature" with the authors chosen because really they're much more well known to people who haven't already started familiarizing themselves with the movement.
_________________


Last edited by Monkey Mcdermott on Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your point is that Tat should have avoided doing this strip in order to not get anywhere near a disgusting transphobic stereotype, then it would be great if you would actually argue that instead of saying that's actually what is in this strip.

I would also love it if you would recognize that while your points are valid, other people have valid reasons that are not transphobia for reaching the conclusion that this strip is not transphobic.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sassafras



Joined: 10 Jun 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
the logic you used to decry it as "sounds like TERF" is the exact same logic I used above
Except that there is in fact a history of people using those stereotypes against trans people in both real life and fiction so it's absolutely not unreasonable to be suspicious when someone sounds like they might be doing it again. I didn't pick it out of thin paranoid air. If you just don't think Tat is doing that, then fine, but don't claim it's bad logic to be wary of people using dog-whistles.

stripeypants wrote:
If your point is that Tat should have avoided doing this strip in order to not get anywhere near a disgusting transphobic stereotype, then it would be great if you would actually argue that instead of saying that's actually what is in this strip.
Are you talking to me? Because I didn't say that that's actually what is in the strip and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. YES, I think he should have avoided this strip entirely because it looks similar to the stereotype and as someone who clearly cares about gender issues he should be more aware of such things.

Quote:
I would also love it if you would recognize that while your points are valid, other people have valid reasons that are not transphobia for reaching the conclusion that this strip is not transphobic.
And I also didn't say that, but for the sake of clarity, NO, I don't believe that anyone on this thread is saying this comic isn't transphobic because they're transphobic (at most I was worried that some might be unaware of the common TERF tropes and were dismissing the concern because of that). I've been reading this forum for a few months now and I would actually be shocked if any regulars here were transphobic. That still doesn't convince me that the strip actually isn't, no matter how much I want it to not be. I just wish Tat would clarify, though I doubt he will, so I'll just have to get used to this annoying lack of closure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6109
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'd just like to know why you would interpret this strip in such a way that it's transphobic, given absolutely no reason to do so and every reason to interpret it otherwise.

i mean i guess if you already hate the Sisterhood and you're just looking for a way to spin the strip so it looks like they're the bigots you want them to be, okay, there's that. but that's pretty silly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sassafras



Joined: 10 Jun 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
i'd just like to know why you would interpret this strip in such a way that it's transphobic, given absolutely no reason to do so and every reason to interpret it otherwise.

i mean i guess if you already hate the Sisterhood and you're just looking for a way to spin the strip so it looks like they're the bigots you want them to be, okay, there's that. but that's pretty silly.
Seriously? Are you fucking kidding me?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, I'll try to make a list

* specific literature referenced in past strips, if you want to obsess over _probably irrelevant_ details
* similarities in portrayal to problematic media, especially if you completely ignore the characters' implied intents
* Word choice used in past "women only space" strips, if interpreted literally
_________________
butts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 859
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, while Tat hasn't really touched on trans* issues, I think he has been learning about that sort of stuff but maybe doesn't want to directly address it at this stage for fear of getting something wrong. In much earlier strips there was a lot of biological essentialism and cissexism, things like saying Slick/men were acting in inappropriate ways "because of the Y chromosome" and references to genitals equalling gender. I think that's why Tat also doesn't want to revisit the Trans State, because last time changing bodies was equated with changing genders and he's probably figured out that's not quite how it works.

I still think that the joke of the strip is that they're spy drones, literal robot flying pyramids, doing a terrible job of infiltration using only the most superficial stereotypes and otherwise looking the exact same as when they previously tried to spy/attack the members of the Sisterhood. To me it's more of the equivalent of putting bows on a machine gun and trying to take it into a weapons-free event, claiming it's actually your parasol and is just there to keep the sun off. Unless you believe trans women are in fact inherently dangerous (which would be highly transphobic/transmisogynist), I don't think this is a good comparison in any way. Maybe a TERF or something would be able to look at this comic and be like "ah yes, the killer spy robots trying to infiltrate by affecting femininity, exactly like those t******" but if you ask me, that's THEIR problem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 1103
Location: Hel

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Sassafras.

I will say that I did not and do not notice anything inherently transphobic in the strip, and it is difficult for me to understand the connections you fear. Granted, until today, I did not know that TERF was a thing. The revelation is disheartening.

But if the strip has reminded you of something harmful, I don't think there's anything shameful about feeling concerned. If that's what you were saying.

I'm afraid I haven't paid close attention to what has been said.

In any case, welcome to the community.
_________________
Greetings, fool mortals.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10888
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sassafras wrote:
I just wish Tat would clarify, though I doubt he will, so I'll just have to get used to this annoying lack of closure.

I've been staying out of this conversation because I don't know as much about trans issues as I'd like (and we're not short on people to learn from), but I will say that this is definitely true.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sassafras wrote:
The problem is that this is almost exactly what transphobes actually believe trans people are doing. The minority of radical feminists are happy to claim that trans women do not actually feel an innate female gender but are quite literally men doing bad woman impressions in order to gain access to women-only spaces for harrassment/rape. They're even willing to call trans women artificial constructs of doctors and the patriarchy. So it's difficult to interpret the drones as only the literal events of the strip because it is also exactly the sort of metaphor someone who is sympathetic to TERF propaganda would produce. It doesn't matter that the drones are not actually acting out of their true gender identity because transphobes don't believe actual trans people are either. And unfortunately the concern about the strip is legitimate because we can't be sure that the Sisterhood (and by extension Tat) isn't TERF unless they clarify.

(also hi)


You wrote this after a few other people said this strip was transphobic, so if you didn't think so, you should have clarified. Nowhere in here did you say that, and so there was no reason to assume you weren't totally agreeing.

If what you are talking about is how people should know what TERF is and be careful not do anything like it in their art, I agree. I still don't think this strip is a match for TERF propaganda, but with tweaking it could be.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Varthonai



Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I didn't say you were one of those jerks who came over from shitty webcomics dawt com here to concern troll but you're using the tactics someone from there with a bit more intelligence might use to subtly be a jerk while maintaining plausible deniability.

See how that works?


You said that I was, though! Can I take your backhanded and unapologetic semi-withdrawal of this accusation against Sassafras' similar argument as a sign that I am also in the clear? Or was my nefarious bunny avatar (which, incidentally, was picked in response to a specific recommendation by a SinFest forumite) just too horrible a crime to forgive so easily? Mad

I fully admit to "wringing my hands" when I get anxious sometimes, though! It's a habit I picked up after the same bullying in my history that led to a lot of the entirely genuine and deeply personal views that I very non-trollingly choose to express in this forum!

This isn't even remotely a valid comparison. You're seriously equating an accusation of transphobic implications--one which was based upon remarkable similarity to TERF ideology that even some of Tat's defenders in this thread admit are striking, and one which gives Tat the benefit of the doubt that it was out of ignorance rather than conscious transphobia--to an accusation of trolling meant solely to discredit the views of people offended by said implications, by way of ad hominem and based on nothing at all?

stripeypants wrote:
If your point is that Tat should have avoided doing this strip in order to not get anywhere near a disgusting transphobic stereotype, then it would be great if you would actually argue that instead of saying that's actually what is in this strip.

I would also love it if you would recognize that while your points are valid, other people have valid reasons that are not transphobia for reaching the conclusion that this strip is not transphobic.


Sassafras already basically said what I would have said in response

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
There are 2 zenzapped drones...they'd tell the difference by the butterfly wings and the fact that they wouldn't be lurking around pretending (Badly) to be women and (badly) fishing for dirt.


No, that is a difference at least as superficial as changing black wings to white, completely changing the shape of an eye, and growing eyelids with lashes, if not more so. You only find it "obvious" because of privileged audience knowledge.

And I don't care how many people come up with extenuating circumstances where it REALLY IS OKAY to identify someone as clearly not a real woman because it's just SO OBVIOUS, the notion of being able to distinguish a "pretending" cisperson by how "badly" they pretend to be of a certain sex just feels inherently icky, especially so when the consequences of failing to pass can involve capital punishment. By chainsaw.

stripeypants wrote:
In a different context, let's say a murderous spy robot for a theocratic government tries to infiltrate an underground transgender support group. The murderous spy robot displays the obvious tell tale signs of being a spy robot which kills people and reports back to the theocratic government on the activities of the group. Believing that robots lack sentience or that destroying an enemy who is out to destroy you is justified, the group kills the spy robots. Because they are spy robots, not because they aren't trans. Unlike a normal actual person who may not behave like other trans people expect them to, the spy robots trying to join the group are trying to kill all the members and eradicate trans people from the earth.

In that case, even if the group doesn't kill the robots, the group has to do something to keep the robots from infiltrating them - because the trans support group would cease to exist if they ignore the signs that dangerous beings are trying to enter their safe space.


Yes I agree; in such a scenario the group would seem much more sympathetic to me, though in a story portraying such a world I would expect some meaningful discussion on having to make such a difficult choice for the good of the cause, and the consequences for the poor folks who are hurt by it.

My issue is that SinFest intends itself to be a commentary on IRL gender issues in the here and now, occasional fun-comic shenanigans aside. And while (need I reiterate once again) I assume that transphobic implications were not deliberate on Tat's part, it bears a much closer resemblance to TERF fears than to any significant contemporary real-world effort to violate women's spaces that I am aware of, and whether it was intentional or not, I believe that ought to be called out.

stripeypants wrote:
The drones pretending to be women to mess with the Sisterhood reminds me a lot of cops pretending to be gay to entrap gay men in restrooms and bars. In that case, while a few cops might do it to explore their own sexuality, most did it out of homophobia or to do their job. And there were ways to tell that someone was an undercover cop rather than an actual part of the group, because of small and large differences in their behavior.

In that case, though, the gay people didn't have things to smash the undercover cops with. They just slunk away as quietly as they could and hoped not to be rounded up into paddywagons, exposed to all the world for being queer, and losing whatever they had left to lose. That's if they didn't get beaten, which they probably would.


I find this comparison a lot more persuasive and relatable than your other one in the context of SinFest. But I guess I would also feel very differently about this strip if the Sisterhood didn't always have things to smash the drones with on hand and the general capacity to do so with relative impunity. The issue is to do with the balance of power, I think; both of them involve an outside party coming into a space where they are not welcome, but obviously in the case of TERFs and transfolk it's the TERFs in control of their women's only spaces, while in the case of gay men and undercover cops, the cops are the ones with the real power. The Sisterhood generally seems to outgun the drones by a considerably margin since they've destroyed like, what, a dozen drones over the course of SinFest's history compared to the drones' zero casualties.

In fact, reexamining my feelings with that in mind I think that one of the things that might be bothering me about Sisterhood strips on a subliminal level is that the Sisterhood is always shown to be inordinately more powerful than oppressed resistances tend to be IRL. They DO have things to smash the undercover cops with, they DO have the means to effectively defend a big portion of space from intruders, they DO have the means to cause deep and grievous injuries to D-Corp, and D-Corp usually seems powerless to respond in kind.

I get the righteous underdog vibe from, for instance, 'Nique at her new and unpopular performances attended by hecklers; her struggle feels more genuine because it the odds actually seem to be against her (might be projecting because I really like 'Nique's current arc and feel like we haven't seen it enough recently). Whereas in Sisterhood arcs D-Corp is usually comically inept, this strip being a good example, and the connection to actual feminism facing the actual patriarchy feels sort of cheap. Does that make sense? : /

Moor wrote:
And this is a minor point, but I definitely disagree that this is concern trolling. Concern trolling is when someone expresses concern about a different issue than the one at hand in order to derail the conversation. The issue at hand before this was how 1337 sounds like someone warbling underwater. There was nothing to derail it from.


thank you Moor

Istancow wrote:
if the strip has reminded you of something harmful, I don't think there's anything shameful about feeling concerned. If that's what you were saying.


that was directed at Sassafras but I assume the sentiment applies to everyone on Sassafras' side of the discussion for whom it is applicable, so

thank you too Instancow < 3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3333

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No varthonai...you can go fuck yourself.

Something about you still reeks of bullshit trolling.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 6 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group