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2014-01-05: Target 14
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Geareye



Joined: 21 Mar 2013
Posts: 281

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
As long as you are not hurting anyone, you are alright by me.


Same here.

As for the being called creepy.... well, truth is, don't give it too much thought. You're not creepy. No one is. In the same way that no one is beautiful, ugly, scary and so on. You can't be objectively creepy, it's just a matter of who's talking to you and how they feel. But because they feel creeped out by you, you don't become objectively creepy, in the same way that you are not beautiful/ugly, simply because someone finds you so. When someone calls you creepy, it only means that they feel creeped out by you and won't socialise with you, but that's fine. In the same way that if someone found you ugly, they wouldn't want to date you, someone who finds you creepy won't want to hang out with you. None of the two should make you feel bad about yourself.

Problem is, when too many people find you creepy, you get left with no one to be with. Well....while that does suck, it's not problematic. Sorry, but you're not entitled to the existence of people who would like you and/or feel comfortable around you, even if you're a nice person who wouldn't hurt anyone. Yes, it sucks big time, but sucking doesn't make it wrong.

Again, as Istancow said, as long as you're not hurting anyone, ain't got a problem with you.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3316

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, and yet your tiptoeing around your kink and describing it in the way you do makes you come across as exceedingly creepy. I don't know if its kids, rape fetish, vore or whatever but your vagueness just increases the creep factor of whatever you're talking about.

There's a whole list of sexual foibles, mishaps and kinks that this forum has been ok, to able to come to grips with and welcome the people who have them. Sexualities from homo to het and the vast spectrum inbetween. Age differences, furries (as long as you arent spamming the boards with yiff porn..there's a history there) BDSM, high and low libidos.... yet you describe your kink as something that even the internet will excoriate you for. That's scary as hell, ive been on the internet for years and seen so many things i wish i never had. The concept of something too extreme for the internet is frightening to anyone who's spent any amount of time on it.

Frankly I doubt your kink is really that bad. I suspect you're a lot like the people who I argued about porn with that were completely unaware of the existence of revenge porn sites. I could be wrong but given that there are even places that chimos can go and feel welcomed on the net I find it far more likely that your own anxieties about your kink are making you feel more uncomfortable than the reality of the situation.
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wobster109 wrote:
Moor: I don't say the battlebot wasn't real in Sinfest world. I said I sympathize with Milton, and I understand why he would think so. I said I know what it's like thinking of fembots as not-people. Not that it's Sinfest-accurate or even right, but that I can see why Milton thinks so. Anyways I brought it up because people were saying it's impossible to like Milton anymore, so I tried to explain why I still liked him. Also: funny that of all the people insulting me and calling me names, I'm the one who needs to stop.


You're right, I shouldn't have been nearly that harsh.

That said, I do think that you should have made a distinction between fembots and what you want. Because... in context, it really doesn't come out right.



Also peoples: regardless of how disturbing or not we might think or guess Wobster's fantasy is, if she would rather not talk about it, it really doesn't actually need to get talked about.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dragonwriter, is that you?
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
dragonwriter, is that you?

(... who was that responding to?... (Sorry, I'm bad at telling these things...))
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6508

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fun fact: Ladies can be creepy, too! Granted, it's a lot more difficult, but hey you're doing a stellar job so far.

But no really, I'm under exactly zero moral obligation to sympathize with someone because they want to hurt other people without their consent.

The worst I've done to you is call you out on being super fucking creepy and offer zero sympathy towards anything involving hurting people against their will.

Telling me all about what a great person you are doesn't make your previous comments suddenly stop being creepy. Shrouding it all in ~mystery~ and acting super defensive over it is not lending itself to uncreepifying things. Assuming I am in any way morally obligated to sympathize with you over something you refuse to elaborate on (presumably because you assume I'll condemn you for it if I knew the truth of it) is just not going to happen. That part isn't even creepy it's just ridiculous.
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Samsally the GrayAce
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6508

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
dragonwriter, is that you?

Startled the ugly laugh right out of me.
Moor wrote:

(... who was that responding to?... (Sorry, I'm bad at telling these things...))

Not you.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

short version: dragonwriter was a guy here who claimed that he raped his sister, because he had all these hormones and he had to put them somewhere 'cuz y'know boys will be boys and she was such a slut anyway y'know. and he underwent some manner of punishment which he thought deeply unjust, but nobly endured it anyway, like some kind of child-molesting samurai or something. then he came back and made a bunch of posts telling us how the dark side is ever-present in our hearts and we were each one flip of the switch away from raping our sisters too, and it was only by the grace of his tenuous, straining restraint that he didn't do it again, or something else equally horrible. for which he expected sympathy.

which is roughly the moral analogue of me standing up, at age 25 and in full control of your faculties, and proudly proclaiming that this time i took a shit in the toilet, thank you very much. no need to thank me, no need to cheer, just know that with great effort i deigned to defecate in the proper receptacle. you may now proceed to be very impressed with my noble sacrifice.

i think he's in therapy now? i hope he's in therapy now, anyway.
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wobster109



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh.

I'm sorry I lost my temper. I shared a bit too much because I was trying to justify my fondness for Milton, and then it sort of snowballed from there.

Samsally:

Quote:
... because they want to hurt other people without their consent

This does not describe me. I've said it twice before and I'll say it again. I have no intention of hurting anyone, ever. I never do anything sexual with anyone without their consent, nor would I ever want to. Please don't assume something like that about me. Much of what you say doesn't even apply to me, because like I've said (3 times at least now), I don't want to hurt anyone. I told you about my misogyny-fighting adventures because I want to convey that I help people, I don't hurt them.

Yes, I am defensive. When I get called "super fucking creepy", that makes me defensive. I hate hearing people say, oh that's awful, that's sick, those people should be shot. . . and knowing inside they're talking about me. I hate it regardless of whether it's about my being liberal, pro-abortion, anti-gun, atheist, feminist, or anything else.

But I like to think we all have a moral obligation to be kind to each other. Of course this doesn't apply in extraordinary circumstances, but I think an opinion about a comic character is ordinary. I would never call you terrible names and say mean things about you. I hope you can show me the same kindness.

Are you saying hurtful things to me because you believe I'm out to harm people? Now that you know it's not true, can you stop saying them please?

Monkey McDermott: Yes, the internet in all likelihood must have seen it before, and all the same not everything online is good for everyday relationships with people you'll interact with again. I believe there's a supportive internet group somewhere. You're right, personal insecurities are definitely huge, and unfortunately not like rocks that can be tossed somewhere and left behind. Smile

Moor: You're right, I didn't make the distinction clear. I should have been more clear about Milton's view vs. anything else, and I should definitely not post online in a hurry! Thank you for being kind.

Istancow, Geareye, Everyone: Thank you for understanding.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6508

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay so just to break it down:

1) Something doesn't line up, because I can't figure out why you'd need a sexbot for something if consent wasn't the issue. I don't want or need to know what the kink is, but I'm assuming this is the source of the misunderstanding, if there is one.

2) Calling something or someone creepy isn't like calling them a slur or something. It's a way to flag people as off-putting in a way that can lead to dangerous. Sometimes (much of the time?) the person isn't actually dangerous, they are just displaying signs that indicate they -could- be. Your initial comments were totally creepy, many people agreed.

3) I've never advocated shooting someone over a kink, no matter how awful I found the kink. And I'm making this comment in the same thread that mentions dragonwriter who, to recap, admitted to raping his underage sister and then showed zero remorse over it, so take that into consideration for just how unlikely it is I'd suggest someone should be shot over something. While I have made assumptions of you based solely off the few things mentioned in this thread, you appear to be making assumptions of me based off of conversations with people who are not me.
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
1) Something doesn't line up, because I can't figure out why you'd need a sexbot for something if consent wasn't the issue. I don't want or need to know what the kink is, but I'm assuming this is the source of the misunderstanding, if there is one.

You could need some sort of robot if (a) it required a good deal of trust, and (b) you felt that any human who found out about it would forever associate you with it, and it would permanently color their perception of you, which you would rather not have people think of every time they see you.


Also, regarding (3), I think she was talking about how it (or similar things) are talked about on the internet in general.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10800
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wobster109 wrote:
First things first: I am a woman.

Okay. Not sure it's relevant.

Quote:
Yes, you're supposed to sympathize with me, because I've had a dream all my life that I will never get to experience. Even if you find the dream weird and objectionable, you can still sympathize with a dream I'll never get to experience.

Why? Why does anyone have to sympathize with anyone else's dream? It's not having a dream that makes a person sympathetic, anymore than "I make actions" makes someone a hero or a monster. "Having a dream" is a meaningless situation that draws no special emotion at all (we all have dreams). It's the content which makes people sympathize with you or not.

Quote:
Did you know I stopped three drunk men from harassing two women of color on a train? They were all strangers. When I was in college I stopped a crowd of 50-ish boys from pressuring a girl to kiss someone, again all strangers. And I'm a small Asian-American woman. I fight racism and sexism and body-shaming in my own real life all the time. I'm the friend you can call up in the middle of the night, I'll drive you across town and back if you asked me to, I'll take whole days to take care of people who are ill. I never hurt anyone.

These are all good things. You should do good things, and not do bad things. Without knowing the content of your desire (and for god's sake don't tell me) I can't make a judgement of its content, whether it's bad or not. What I can do is say that the way you described it is, yes, super fucking creepy.

Quote:
You're not under any moral obligation to support my fantasies. But maybe you can be sympathetic of my situation. Maybe you do have a moral obligation to be kind to me.

I actually agree with this. Well, I don't actually know if I have any moral obligation to be sympathetic to your situation because I don't know it. I'm not obligated to feel sympathy just because you have a situation generally. But I do think we have a general moral obligation to be kind to one another... until someone does something that is questionable, distasteful, threatening, dangerous to others, etc. Whether you've done one of those things is a judgement made by observers (i.e., me and everyone else).

Quote:
In every aspect I have less rights

In what way do you lack a right that others have? I don't think sexual acts are a right. They're moderated by all sorts of things - you can't generally do them in public, you can't do them to people who don't consent (including animals), you can't do them to children, etc. Your ability to have sex rests entirely on your ability to find a willing, adult, human partner... which means it's not a right, it's a privilege granted to us by those partners. So, tell me what right you're lacking.

Quote:
Dogen: You do have to hurt someone to be creepy! Otherwise it's all personal judgment!

Being creepy is always a personal judgement. There is no objective criteria for creepiness. No blood lab or psychological test for creepy. You are creepy if a person observes your behavior and deems it creepy to them. So no, you don't have to hurt anyone to be creepy.

Quote:
And anyways it's perfectly safe but that's besides the point. By the way, do you know how many times I've confided in a close friend and been told to go to mental health, so they can take away my desire and replace it with nothing? I don't need to change.

I can't speak to this directly, but since I have no obligation to sympathize (because it's the content of your desire that determines whether you are sympathetic or not), I also feel no obligation to say you shouldn't change. I don't have enough information to say. All I can say is that the way you talk about it is creepy.

Quote:
And you know, maybe most people do find it creepy, but it doesn't hurt any less to be called super fucking creepy just because it's happened a bunch of times before. Maybe I'm a person behind the screen who's hurt by things like that.

Then you should think more carefully about when, where, with whom, and how you share things. If you'd kept this to yourself I wouldn't find you creepy. Maybe if you'd described it some other way I wouldn't find it creepy, I don't know. I'm not a bully by nature, but neither am I going to apologize if you vaguely describe something that could easily be something dangerous and immoral and then get upset when people react badly.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 820
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off:
Quote:
Ennis: I'm a woman.

Apologies for misgendering you. I was going off of other people's pronouns and assumed they knew it from some kind of previous encounter.

Monkey wrote:
There's a whole list of sexual foibles, mishaps and kinks that this forum has been ok, to able to come to grips with and welcome the people who have them. Sexualities from homo to het and the vast spectrum inbetween. Age differences, furries (as long as you arent spamming the boards with yiff porn..there's a history there) BDSM, high and low libidos.... yet you describe your kink as something that even the internet will excoriate you for. That's scary as hell, ive been on the internet for years and seen so many things i wish i never had. The concept of something too extreme for the internet is frightening to anyone who's spent any amount of time on it.

This. The suggestion that somehow your kink is worse than anything I've ever encountered on the internet, considering everything I've seen on the internet, that's what scares and/or creeps me out (and presumably the others commenting similarly too). At this point, whatever the hell this super secret fetish is is probably far less worse than what we're all imagining. Is it cutting someone open or being cut open and then inserting things into the cuts, and that's why a fembot might be better because you could turn off their pain recepticles? Is it something to do with bodily excretions? Amputations? Cutting someone's eyes out? Cannibalism? I mean, there's a show about a cannibal on right now for christ's sake. It's even quite popular.

I fail to see how you somehow have fewer rights because you can't indulge your kink. Sex is not a right, except with yourself. You need someone to consent.

Quote:
If I were "out" I'd be in physical danger.

Seriously, the only fetish I can think of in which this would sound likely is pedophilia. If that's what it is, why don't you just say it?

Quote:
By the way, all those people you listed, I'll defend their rights: their right to draw child porn without involving any actual children, to role play with other consenting adults, to lick a horse's penis so long as they aren't injuring the animal. Wanting to draw child porn in your room is VERY DIFFERENT from wanting to violate age of consent!

I said nothing about drawing or role-playing, I was pointing out that even the most pariah-ed of philias has its defendents, defendents not even defending an aspect which arguably doesn't hurt anyone, defendants defending actual harmful behaviour. And yet you claim no one would ever come to your defense. This harks back to what Monkey was saying, that that just makes people horrified at the thought that whatever you're talking about could possibly be worse. It's like the movie monster they only show parts of in shadow, because the audience's imagination creates something far scarier than anyone could ever design.

Quote:
I compare my fetish to the oppression of LGBTQIA people because that's how it is! LGBTQIA can expand to the whole alphabet and still it won't include me.

Maybe because the QUILTBAG alphabet soup doesn't include fetishes or kinks??

Honestly, just go join fetlife, I'm sure you'll find people who have the same kink and are eager to discuss it with you. If you want people to stop being so creeped out stop phrasing it like it's the cthulu of fetishes and either just straight out state it or keep it to yourself.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wobster wrote:
I identify with Milton because he doesn't know. He's used to thinking a certain way and doesn't know what a reality zone is like. It's more like judging a person who's attracted to children but deals with it by playing with dolls. I'm sympathetic to pedophiles who fantasize and draw child porn and never ever touch a real child. No one chooses to be attracted to children. If they ever hurt a real child, I would condemn them and hate them. But if they write fanfiction in their own houses and draw their own art? I'm not going to judge them.


People who don't understand that strippers have boundaries, feelings or humanity are creepy. People who enjoy erotic dancing are not automatically creepy, but if they say, "I identify with that creeper over there," they come off as creepy.

I personally don't think wanting a robot for sex is wrong, and I'm sure there are ways to do it ethically. For whatever reason, though, these fembots have the capability of being aware of what is happening and not wanting to participate. Why would the designer of such robots be unaware of this capability?
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diagram12345



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, hopefully my sweater doesn't suddenly become sentient, run away from me, and make me feel awful for supporting a culture where sheep don't have control over their own bodies and periodically have extensions of said bodies taken away.

Unspoken kink lady -- you should probably stay off the forums. All internet forums. Go build a happy and productive life away from the judgment of internet strangers, because this place doesn't exactly check credentials before letting people in.
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