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The gun violence thread.
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CalmBlueSea



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 145
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might not fit the EXACT letter of those categories, but I'm pretty sure the entirety of gangland gun violence can be classed as the kind of irresponsible, unnecessary bullshit this list is for. Even if you don't think the solution to that particular problem is more regulation (as what they did is already illegal), it's certainly a case for a drastic shift in the priorities of law enforcement.

This kind of thing is where the Drug War money should be going.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1212
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalmBlueSea wrote:
It might not fit the EXACT letter of those categories, but I'm pretty sure the entirety of gangland gun violence can be classed as the kind of irresponsible, unnecessary bullshit this list is for. Even if you don't think the solution to that particular problem is more regulation (as what they did is already illegal), it's certainly a case for a drastic shift in the priorities of law enforcement.

This kind of thing is where the Drug War money should be going.


To me, the thing about:
Quote:
irresponsible assholes being careless with the storage or care of their guns, mass shootings, or bullshit like the ex cop shooting a guy for texting


Is that those instances represent situations where harm could have been avoided if a weapon hadn't been close at hand or lying around. I'd argue that the problem with including gangland slayings is that, compared to recklessness and spontaneous violence, where the possession of firearms could be a determining factor in the outcome (theater argument turns into a murder, mental illness can lead to harm to self or others, etc), gang hits are planned out and if guns aren't available, other ways can and will be found. Follow the person and knife them when they stop somewhere. Put a bomb in their car. Invite them over and beat them to death with a bat. These methods aren't uncommon, and sometimes are preferred to using a firearm. Removing firearms from gangs, if such a thing was possible (personally, with how well connected some gangs are, I don't think it is) wouldn't stop these crimes.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3352

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:15 am    Post subject: Re: Speaking to the choir etc etc Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Who's complaining? I'm simply collecting such data as i can. Now you do know my stance i'm sure from other posts, but I haven't editorialized here at all. This time next year y'all can draw whatever conclusions you like from it, but all these off subject posts are really doing is making the thread larger than it would be if it was just me posting links.


Nevertheless, your point would become more effective if you also posted links to those saved by guns.

The large disparity between the two types of events must be shown using the same methods, or you will be dismissed as being biased and only reporting one side of the story.


Start your own fucking thread douchebag.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy, even if you did try to collect data, it's a lot harder to count the number of people saved by guns than it is to count people killed by them. For one thing, if an incident is quickly diffused it is not as likely to make the news, or to be reported in any other meaningful way, as is something involving casualties.

Scaling things up from guns to nukes for a bit, we can roughly estimate how many people have been killed by nuclear warheads, but we have no idea to what degree they've worked as a deterrent in preventing other wars a la Nuclear peace, or if they've even worked at all towards that end.

It doesn't take much to make comparative statistics worthless. No one on any side of the guns argument would be convinced of anything by the results of such a tally, at least not any more than they'd be convinced by the length of some forum thread or the sheer number of consecutive days that DutchCommie commented on Derp Face on YouTube.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10660
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claudius Smith is the new George Zimmerman: http://politicalblindspot.com/another-man-in-florida-stood-his-ground-chasing-and-killing-youth-in-hoodie/
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1907
Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Claudius Smith is the new George Zimmerman: http://politicalblindspot.com/another-man-in-florida-stood-his-ground-chasing-and-killing-youth-in-hoodie/


That's a rather strained comparison. Zimmerman wasn't granted immunity from prosecution. Smith didn't have injuries to suggest a struggle. Sanes was shot in the back, which would indicate an attempt to flee on his part and therefore seem to disprove the assertion that Smith thought he was in 'imminent danger,' which is required to make a SYG defense plausible.
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3661
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: Speaking to the choir etc etc Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Who's complaining? I'm simply collecting such data as i can. Now you do know my stance i'm sure from other posts, but I haven't editorialized here at all. This time next year y'all can draw whatever conclusions you like from it, but all these off subject posts are really doing is making the thread larger than it would be if it was just me posting links.


Nevertheless, your point would become more effective if you also posted links to those saved by guns.

The large disparity between the two types of events must be shown using the same methods, or you will be dismissed as being biased and only reporting one side of the story.


Start your own fucking thread douchebag.


You're the only one here having an axe to grind.

You won't find a single person here that disagrees with the politics of gun control.

We all share similar political ideals here.

But if you are going to collect data and be taken seriously by someone not from this forum, don't half-ass it.
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3661
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Thy, even if you did try to collect data, it's a lot harder to count the number of people saved by guns than it is to count people killed by them. For one thing, if an incident is quickly diffused it is not as likely to make the news, or to be reported in any other meaningful way, as is something involving casualties.

Scaling things up from guns to nukes for a bit, we can roughly estimate how many people have been killed by nuclear warheads, but we have no idea to what degree they've worked as a deterrent in preventing other wars a la Nuclear peace, or if they've even worked at all towards that end.

It doesn't take much to make comparative statistics worthless. No one on any side of the guns argument would be convinced of anything by the results of such a tally, at least not any more than they'd be convinced by the length of some forum thread or the sheer number of consecutive days that DutchCommie commented on Derp Face on YouTube.


There are metrics for dealing with unreported cases of guns saving lives, just like how there are metrics for dealing with unreported rape cases. Environmental, geopolitical, and financial factors are usually taken into consideration.

It's not unheard of.

The key is simply gathering as much data as you possibly can, which is why (as a sidenote) the government is frequently funding research and advances in datamining techniques.

I imagine gathering some intel on crime rates in the cities where Monkey is recording all these deaths by guns would not be a bad idea.

I also imagine that Monkey should change his google search location often to get searches from different locations in the US, because more can be found this way.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10953
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're really hitting the mark on Monkey's need for approval by others there. I mean, look at his obsequious post history, his overt attempts to make people like him, his convivial nature. Yes, going with the "what other people will think" argument is finely tuned to this audience.
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3661
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
You're really hitting the mark on Monkey's need for approval by others there. I mean, look at his obsequious post history, his overt attempts to make people like him, his convivial nature. Yes, going with the "what other people will think" argument is finely tuned to this audience.


All I see is the fear in your eyes.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10953
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, but I wouldn't trust you to tell me what emotion was displayed on a happy face, so maybe trying to guess my feelings over the internet isn't going to get you far. With me, anyway. Try your psychobabble on people who don't see through you.
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3661
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:33 am    Post subject: Psychobabble indeed. Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Okay, but I wouldn't trust you to tell me what emotion was displayed on a happy face, so maybe trying to guess my feelings over the internet isn't going to get you far. With me, anyway. Try your psychobabble on people who don't see through you.


You can't see through someone you can't understand buddy.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10953
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heheh... that is so true. Smile
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3352

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've abandoned this project because with Thy and Mindslicer shitting the place up I've found things id rather be doing than this forum.

Carry on.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17600
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh drat - and we all know how important it is to you to make a good impression on people who come here from other fora!

but now i can point out - the ny times has been doing a daily gun report - for those who want to keep up.
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