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The gun violence thread.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 2155
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Taemon wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Fully automatic machine guns newer than roughly thirty years old are illegal to buy or own and have been since the 80s.

Wow! That's an infringement on your freedom! It says clearly in the second amendment to the Constitution that you have a right to bear fully automatic machine guns! Don't let them walk over you like that, man!


Sorry, I thought you were honestly not knowledgeable about the U.S. federal laws concerning who can legally own a firearm, but apparently you were just intentionally mischaracterizing the situation in America as a means of social signalling. Carry on.

Fuck your cosmetic terms. I really don't give a shit what murder toy you call "semiautomatic" or "machine gun". Whether they can murder one person at a time or a hundred, get them out.
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Last edited by Taemon on Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 14390
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
the problem isn't unsolvable and Australia proved it after the PA shootings.
...
But when it happens, we will fucking GUT the second amendment and we will be a better and safer country for it, no matter the protests of weasly shits who still try the arguments about how gun control doesn't work.


Really the only way I can respond to this is by quoting myself quoting The Onion again.

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
The bad thing for satire writers is that The Onion's had all of this covered for years.

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens (Keep scrolling and check the dates)

The NRA is, of course, tragically predictable. Try making a bingo card out of these past bits:

NRA Sets 1,000 Killed In School Shooting As Amount It Would Take For Them To Reconsider Much Of Anything

NRA Starts Up Their Shit About What Would Be Even Greater Injustice

Emotional Wayne LaPierre Honors Victims Of Background Checks

When Will These Senseless Gun Debates Come To An End?

Frustrated Wayne LaPierre Thought Murder Of 20 Children By Crazed Gunman Would Have Blown Over By Now


There is no other way around this. The US stands out for non-war related mass shootings and our unusual attitude towards gun ownership.

We can (and should) talk about access to physical and mental healthcare and alleviating poverty to reduce overall violence, including gun violence. Bringing our nation up to the standards of the rest of the developed world for people in need is crucial regardless of whether we have a gun violence problem or not. (Ironically, the popular lipservice about improving mental health access comes from the same party that wants to cut the social safety net and public funding of mental healthcare access, AND wants to defeat gun control.)

But until we decide to eliminate the low-hanging fruit of gun access, we will continue to have these problems disproportionately.
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 2545
Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
the problem isn't unsolvable and Australia proved it after the PA shootings.


http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/261-280/tandi269.html

Australia's gun homicide rate was lower than the U.S.'s before the Port Arthur shootings, was already trending downward at the time, and the trend continued after the event.

Quote:
Our current gun laws are insane.

Our current gun laws will continue to be insane until enough old conservatives die off that we can enact meaningful gun reform.

We will continue to have a wildly, wildly disproportional number of homicides and mass shooting events until this happens.

But when it happens, we will fucking GUT the second amendment and we will be a better and safer country for it, no matter the protests of weasly shits who still try the arguments about how gun control doesn't work.


Maybe, except calls to 'fucking GUT the second amendment' tend to create and/or motivate new generations of gun rights advocates.
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11068

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Taemon wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Fully automatic machine guns newer than roughly thirty years old are illegal to buy or own and have been since the 80s.

Wow! That's an infringement on your freedom! It says clearly in the second amendment to the Constitution that you have a right to bear fully automatic machine guns! Don't let them walk over you like that, man!


Sorry, I thought you were honestly not knowledgeable about the U.S. federal laws concerning who can legally own a firearm, but apparently you were just intentionally mischaracterizing the situation in America as a means of social signalling. Carry on.

Fuck your cosmetic terms. I really don't give a shit what murder toy you call "semiautomatic" or "machine gun". Where they can murder one person at a time or a hundred, get them out.


As much as I agree with your sentiment, you're being a total dick here. If you want to yell and shout just go ahead, that's fine with everyone. But don't pretend you're interested in any kind of discussion.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11332

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Maybe, except calls to 'fucking GUT the second amendment' tend to create and/or motivate new generations of gun rights advocates.


They can busy themselves with that sentiment, and with how ridiculous quantities of bloodshed and a pathetic national institution of blockading any meaningful gun reform, no matter how many mass shootings we have, is creating and/or motivating new generations to destroy that amendment.

Demographically, that amendment is on notice. It will probably not last another 50 years in its current incarnation, or at all.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 2155
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Taemon wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Taemon wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Fully automatic machine guns newer than roughly thirty years old are illegal to buy or own and have been since the 80s.

Wow! That's an infringement on your freedom! It says clearly in the second amendment to the Constitution that you have a right to bear fully automatic machine guns! Don't let them walk over you like that, man!


Sorry, I thought you were honestly not knowledgeable about the U.S. federal laws concerning who can legally own a firearm, but apparently you were just intentionally mischaracterizing the situation in America as a means of social signalling. Carry on.

Fuck your cosmetic terms. I really don't give a shit what murder toy you call "semiautomatic" or "machine gun". Where they can murder one person at a time or a hundred, get them out.


As much as I agree with your sentiment, you're being a total dick here. If you want to yell and shout just go ahead, that's fine with everyone. But don't pretend you're interested in any kind of discussion.

Oh, screw that. I'm interested in discussion about what to do about the problem. I'm not interested in what murder toy does or does not constitute an "assault gun".
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're not really helping.
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 27 Jan 2007
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Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously.

Taemon, you made me agree with Mindslicer on something. Stop it.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 4741
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon, you lack good social skills when it comes to online arguments. Is there a reason for that?
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I need more practice :-) It only happens on this forum. I've been trying to find the misunderstanding but it isn't clear to me. I would apologise for my apparently apalling behaviour but I'm pretty sure it'll happen again, so that would be kinda empty.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Maybe, except calls to 'fucking GUT the second amendment' tend to create and/or motivate new generations of gun rights advocates.


They can busy themselves with that sentiment, and with how ridiculous quantities of bloodshed and a pathetic national institution of blockading any meaningful gun reform, no matter how many mass shootings we have, is creating and/or motivating new generations to destroy that amendment.

Demographically, that amendment is on notice. It will probably not last another 50 years in its current incarnation, or at all.


i can't imagine what the country that votes to repeal the second amendment via another constitutional amendment looks like. not sure it ever happens.

but with the supreme court likely flipping, the second amendment may not last even that long in its current form--which is why it's crushingly important for anyone who wants to move back towards sanity on guns to vote for team blue this fall.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:

Our current gun laws will continue to be insane until enough old conservatives die off that we can enact meaningful gun reform.


make that "until wayne lapierre dies". seriously, we had no trouble with regulating firearms until he and his followers took over the NRA and made it the lobbying arm of the gun manufacturers.

we have no trouble imposing limits on other constitutional freedoms. we have free speech, but not to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. we have freedom of the press, but the press can be sued for libel if they publish malicious falsehoods. we have freedom of religion, but you can bet if your version of satanism includes the actual sacrifice of children, you are going to run into some trouble. so given that the 2nd amendment starts with the idea of a "well-regulated militia", we really shouldn't have issues with regulating things. people have to start realizing that you really don't have the right to own any gun you want, whoever you are, any more than you have a right to publish lies or provoke riots with your "free speech". even heller didn't absolutely forbid any sort of regulation of firearms.

but yeah - before we can start a rational discussion, we have to break the fear-hold the nra has over way too many elected officials.
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Sam wrote:

Our current gun laws will continue to be insane until enough old conservatives die off that we can enact meaningful gun reform.


make that "until wayne lapierre dies". seriously, we had no trouble with regulating firearms until he and his followers took over the NRA and made it the lobbying arm of the gun manufacturers.

we have no trouble imposing limits on other constitutional freedoms. we have free speech, but not to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. we have freedom of the press, but the press can be sued for libel if they publish malicious falsehoods. we have freedom of religion, but you can bet if your version of satanism includes the actual sacrifice of children, you are going to run into some trouble. so given that the 2nd amendment starts with the idea of a "well-regulated militia", we really shouldn't have issues with regulating things. people have to start realizing that you really don't have the right to own any gun you want, whoever you are, any more than you have a right to publish lies or provoke riots with your "free speech". even heller didn't absolutely forbid any sort of regulation of firearms.

but yeah - before we can start a rational discussion, we have to break the fear-hold the nra has over way too many elected officials.


When proponents of one side of the gun control issue continues to mischaracterize the positions of the other side, it really doesn't make it look like they want a rational discussion.

Interesting side note: The 'fire in a crowded theater' rationale comes from a unanimous Supreme Court decision that upheld a law granting the Woodrow Wilson administration the power to imprison people for speaking out against America's involvement in World War 1. So, yes, America has historically had little trouble infringing upon rights for reasons that were likely considered 'common sense' at the time.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you seriously suggesting i am mischaracterizing the positions of the pro-gun side when i say they want everyone to be able to buy military-style weapons? yes, yes, i know, it isn't that they want _everyone_ to be able to buy weapons, they just don't want someone who may be erroneously on the no-fly list to have their second-amendment rights slowed in any way. the fact that someone who is erroneously on the no-fly list should, if they are at all rational, immediately take steps to get this situation corrected because that might cause them all kinds of other problems, and that being refusing automatic access to a gun might be the thing that informs them of their status....no, no, can't wait for anything to get fixed!

it's not like, you know, if you get yourself _off_ the list, you can just go back and buy that gun....oh, wait.

oh, yeah, and crazy people. we all agree crazy people shouldn't have guns. so do we all have an agreed-upon definition of crazy people?
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
are you seriously suggesting i am mischaracterizing the positions of the pro-gun side when i say they want everyone to be able to buy military-style weapons?


Well, what you actually said was "any gun." Now you're saying "military-style." Do you believe the two terms are interchangeable?

Quote:
yes, yes, i know, it isn't that they want _everyone_ to be able to buy weapons, they just don't want someone who may be erroneously on the no-fly list to have their second-amendment rights slowed in any way. the fact that someone who is erroneously on the no-fly list should, if they are at all rational, immediately take steps to get this situation corrected because that might cause them all kinds of other problems, and that being refusing automatic access to a gun might be the thing that informs them of their status....no, no, can't wait for anything to get fixed!

it's not like, you know, if you get yourself _off_ the list, you can just go back and buy that gun....oh, wait.


Well, assuming the feds even have to tell you you're on their terror watch list. Given the national security implications, they may well decide that revealing exactly who is on the list to be something they can justify keeping a secret, so someone on the list may not be informed as to why they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm. This doesn't even get into the lack of due process involved in being placed on the list, which, a scant ten years ago, was a racist way for Republican racists to be racist according to Democrats.

In 1963, Martin Luther King was a legal gun owner who was also on a government watch list. John Lewis was on that list, now he's sitting in Congress hoping to put people on secret lists to take away their right to effective self defense. It's pretty scary.

Would you want a hypothetical President Trump to have the power to put people on a secret list and use that list to justify taking rights away that you might value without needing to prove anything in a court of law first? I don't think any one person should have that sort of power.
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