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2/12/2014 - Harassholes
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zarus



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: This being Sinfest Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConstructionCatcalls


Quote:
Sinfest: Monique decides that she craves attention, and so wanders by a construction site (marked "High Testosterone Area"). This being Sinfest, it's she who makes the demeaning comments, then gleefully runs from the resulting barrage of construction equipment.


Find this strip.

Understand the issue.


Yeah hypocrisy's only good when it's funny.
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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diagram12345 wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Cool, images from another universe. I've been dying to visit this world where women rule the world but it turns out I can't afford the drugs for it.


Well, it is true that on average men are far more likely to die on the job. Women have more desk/office jobs and men have more jobs where they take serious physical risks.

I don't really see how that's in any way relevant to sexual harassment though.


Point one: Yes. It is in no way related to sexual harassment.

Point two: All these 'well men get the more dangerous jobs!' arguments run dangerously close to implying that this is an example of women oppressing men. Which is bullshit. Let's get this straight. Who decides what kind of person gets which job, due to being the one in the leadership position an overwhelming majority of the time? Oh yeah, that's right. Men.

Plenty of women are interested in the more "dangerous" jobs, like serving in the army. The resistance to that generally comes from men, as well as built-in institutions run by men. You can't have your cake and eat it too by complaining that men "have" to take all the dangerous and physically-demanding jobs, then turning right around and saying women can't take those jobs because they "lack upper body strength" or whatever excuse you come up with.

As for the catcalling thing, I have very little to add to Yinello. But to anyone doubting or unaware of the utterly destroying impact persistent street harassment can have on people, or wants to find out more about how it happens and what can be done against it as a bystander, I can only direct you to Hollaback. I also recommend Street Harassment Myths and stories of street harassment.

On a final note, I'd like to emphasise something Yinello said:

Yinello wrote:
It's interesting that you mention immature behavior because this is often how it's labelled. "Oh they're just being immature, ignore them!" This is how the perpetrators can keep doing what they do. And sure, for you one time might not seem a big deal. Two times also. But imagine this on a constant basis. Every. Freaking. Day.


This. Every last syllable. The core issue here is that calling it 'immature' or 'childish' presents what happened here as an isolated incident, the girl was just "unlucky" enough to run into a group of guys who "happened" to all be like that. This is ignorant, damaging, and exactly what society raises us to believe to continue excusing and enabling this behaviour, because at the core, it is not a series of isolated incidents. It is systemic, and it is an example of systemic oppression.
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zarus



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These stories leave me convinced that more women should own guns.

Honestly, it's really, really strange to me that a group that believes in the rights of oppressed people thinks that restricting ownership of one of the greatest equalizers ever created would help their cause.


Last edited by zarus on Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 1053
Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diagram12345 wrote:
Are those... cats?



Unless MerchManDan's hypothesis should prove true... ostensibly so. Hmph.

>:{
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, steady on zarus, not all feminists oppose firearm ownership.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10261
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
Hey, steady on zarus, not all feminists oppose firearm ownership.

I personally know one of the founders of Alter.net, and she's told me stories of her crazy bra-burning days once upon a time and guess what--she's a card carrying life member of the NRA and a firearms certification trainer to boot. You really don't get more pro gun than her, or her wife, who's also a lifetime NRA member.

Also, she's one of those sorts who used to pick up 2600 with small change, so um, if you're reading this, This is micky's friend Omar saying 'Hi!'
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diagram12345



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hekateras wrote:
diagram12345 wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Cool, images from another universe. I've been dying to visit this world where women rule the world but it turns out I can't afford the drugs for it.


Well, it is true that on average men are far more likely to die on the job. Women have more desk/office jobs and men have more jobs where they take serious physical risks.

I don't really see how that's in any way relevant to sexual harassment though.


Point one: Yes. It is in no way related to sexual harassment.

Point two: All these 'well men get the more dangerous jobs!' arguments run dangerously close to implying that this is an example of women oppressing men. Which is bullshit. Let's get this straight. Who decides what kind of person gets which job, due to being the one in the leadership position an overwhelming majority of the time? Oh yeah, that's right. Men.

Plenty of women are interested in the more "dangerous" jobs, like serving in the army. The resistance to that generally comes from men, as well as built-in institutions run by men. You can't have your cake and eat it too by complaining that men "have" to take all the dangerous and physically-demanding jobs, then turning right around and saying women can't take those jobs because they "lack upper body strength" or whatever excuse you come up with.

As for the catcalling thing, I have very little to add to Yinello. But to anyone doubting or unaware of the utterly destroying impact persistent street harassment can have on people, or wants to find out more about how it happens and what can be done against it as a bystander, I can only direct you to Hollaback. I also recommend Street Harassment Myths and stories of street harassment.

On a final note, I'd like to emphasise something Yinello said:

Yinello wrote:
It's interesting that you mention immature behavior because this is often how it's labelled. "Oh they're just being immature, ignore them!" This is how the perpetrators can keep doing what they do. And sure, for you one time might not seem a big deal. Two times also. But imagine this on a constant basis. Every. Freaking. Day.


This. Every last syllable. The core issue here is that calling it 'immature' or 'childish' presents what happened here as an isolated incident, the girl was just "unlucky" enough to run into a group of guys who "happened" to all be like that. This is ignorant, damaging, and exactly what society raises us to believe to continue excusing and enabling this behaviour, because at the core, it is not a series of isolated incidents. It is systemic, and it is an example of systemic oppression.


As long as we're on the same page that the "on average, men tend to die more on the job" issue is completely irrelevant to sexual harassment, I have this to say about the former issue -- women are getting more education. More women than men are graduating both high school and college.

Thus, we're able to get the "better," more comfortable desk/office jobs where we're less likely to die on the job. Yes, there are some women who want more dangerous jobs where they're more likely to die during work. But that's not common, and I would argue that many of the men who take those dangerous, grueling physical jobs wouldn't do them if they could get a comfortable desk job with benefits.

So I would bring the conversation around to the difference in graduation rates between men and women -- why is this happening? Why is the school system failing our boys and/or why are boys not learning as well as girls?
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Hitsch



Joined: 10 Mar 2013
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, catcalling is a thing young workers tend to do. I happen to have lived and worked with a few Laughing So what? It's not like it's linked to intelligence. That's why it happens everywhere but dominates in archaic fields.

Quote:
It's interesting that you mention immature behavior because this is often how it's labelled. "Oh they're just being immature, ignore them!" This is how the perpetrators can keep doing what they do. And sure, for you one time might not seem a big deal. Two times also. But imagine this on a constant basis. Every. Freaking. Day.

Yep. This shit ain't no different from what I and countless others got through day after day, year after year of school from the days of kindergarden ('till i switched to private school).
But I'm still not getting it. Both egoistic acting and low empathy ARE a result of underdeveloped personality, or aren't they? I'm looking for a link that connects this to sexism, but think it might be a fallacy of cause and effect. Surely I'm missing the point here.
But what I actually miss, is a way to address the problem. Because I believe this certain problem is rooted so deeply in the abyss of each and every human mind that it can't be attributet or changed to/by society and will not go away even within the next few fuckzillion years of our evolution.

Now, lets go to the much more interesting part: How to react?

I personally, raised to be brainless (a christian zealot that is), turned the other cheek. What's to say. I ended a social fuckup.

Abby reacts in irrational fear, unable to hide it. I've seen two similar personalities become even worse fucked up: alcoholic and borderliner.

Nique reacts in rational anger but stupidly doesn't think first either. She's a classic example of feeding the trolls. Strengthening them, draining power from herself. Making herself look like just another loser, unconsciously perhaps even to Abby. She will still like Nique, even more now, but also lose another bit of hope.

What's left?

Intimidating the fucking trolls. Showing them your fabulous shiny polished ass, so they'll see the reflection of their own immaturity in it. Be the adult and intellectually beat them up mercilessly.
Hands up, who can do that?

I'd love to see Seymour's reaction against this. He'd perhaps somehow twist things to fit his view of the world and throw that back at 'em, leaving the callers unable to decide whether he's crazy, dangerous or dumb. Whatever the case, he'd probably leave them in their confusion and proudly walk out of the place in belief to have made a win/win out of an obvious attack Laughing

Edit:
Quote:
Why is the school system failing our boys and/or why are boys not learning as well as girls?

Because of female teacher be like: "No, [if we ever play soccer anyways] we don't count goals and thus deciding who won and who lost is not nice." and while playing dodgeball: "Stand still, dodging is unfair!" "You're not allowed to catch the ball mid-air, only to pick it up from the ground if it missed you. Everyone must have the exact same chances."
I fucking kid you not! Evil or Very Mad


Last edited by Hitsch on Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17051
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there was a strip where monique was catcalling guys...it's been a while, it was way before the matrix, but she was trying out 'androgynous 'nique". that might be the only way to deal with it, turn the same action back on them, make them look foolish - but that takes guts, and an ability to keep cool under insult - so it's probably not something people manage to do a lot.

edit: so boys will only learn in situations where they can be competitive? they have to be able to win?
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it's all women teachers who are at fault? Singlehandedly?

So what about the numbers of women who can graduate college just fine but can't get well paying jobs?
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zarus



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think our society tolerates "teenage" behavior a little too much. In fact, you will find that practically every society worships the qualities of youth to an unhealthy degree. Hip-hop culture and MRA are just symptoms of a much larger tendency.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

North Korean society doesn't. They revere the elderly.
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zarus



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahaha I guess a society can become oppressive if it's TOO intolerant of the youth.

There's a difference between not worshipping youth and oppressing the youth, I suppose that's in important distinction to make. In fact, avoiding worship of anything as mundane as youth or age is a good idea.

Banish holiness, abandon cleverness,
and the people will benefit a thousandfold. -Lao Tzu
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What disturbs me is people putting youthfulness on a pedestal. It's creepy. I don't want to have to die or watch others die, but I would like to get older. I want to look back on an entire century one day.
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zarus



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, it's not the creepiness that's the problem, it's the sheer boredom of seeing everyone fawn over something as infertile and unproductive as their "culture."
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