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March 8: Talks about Government
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 713

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Southern US businessmen had to abide by Jim Crow laws at the state and local level that were erroneously found constitutional by the Supreme Court in Plessy v. Ferguson. You won't find many libertarians who list that decision anywhere near the Court's best.


So, if it hadn't been for Jim Crow Laws, you think they would have desegregated voluntarily?

Because you're also forgetting there would have been a very big *societal* pressure on them, even without the laws.


Why would legislators have considered Jim Crow laws to be necessary if everyone was racist?

"Societal" pressures, like KKK activities, helped put people into power in the south during Reconstruction so that those laws could be passed.

Quote:
The political terrorism was effective. While Republican gubernatorial candidate Rufus B. Bullock carried the state in April 1868 elections, by November Democratic presidential candidate Horatio Seymour was in the lead. In some counties the contrast was incredible. In John Reed's Oglethorpe County, 1,144 people had voted Republican in April, while only 116 dared to vote Republican in November when Reed's armed Klansmen surrounded the polls. In Columbia County armed Klansmen not only intimidated voters but even cowed federal soldiers sent to guard the polling place. Not surprisingly, while 1,222 votes had been cast in Columbia County for Republican governor Rufus Bullock in April, only one vote was cast for Republican presidential candidate Ulysses Grant in November 1868. Similar political terrorism and control of the polling places help account for Georgia's quick "redemption" and return to conservative white Democratic control by late 1871.


Societal pressures are doing the opposite today re: gay marriage. Young people feel far less threatened by the idea of same sex marriage.


And yet, despite the fact that there are no laws that say "You can't serve gay people", not only are a lot of people trying to not serve gay people (and it is a LOOOOTT harder to tell if someone is gay for looking at them, than if they were black), some states are trying to pass laws making this kind of discrimination explicitly legal. (Not *required*, but legal).

Again. Is your assertion that this would not have happened without Jim Crow Laws? You already admitted societal pressures led to the passing of those laws. Without those laws, would those groups simply not put pressure on businesses?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Again. Is your assertion that this would not have happened without Jim Crow Laws? You already admitted societal pressures led to the passing of those laws. Without those laws, would those groups simply not put pressure on businesses?

If we'd just ignored all of that terrible unpleasantness it would have sorted itself out, Lord Percival Whiteface. Or just continued, ignored. But either way, it would seem like it didn't exist to us, and it would cease ruining our cotillions!
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
I'm interested by this idea that if a situation existed which has never existed before - like a totally free market - it would be a utopia of freedom and prosperity for all.


Utopia? You go get that strawman!

How do free markets stand up when compared to centralized government control? How were things in Eastern Europe and the USSR for most of the 20th century? How are things in Venezuela lately?
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
How do free markets stand up when compared to centralized government control?


You don't know, because based on any definition of "free markets" that libertarians allow per their own ideological constraints, no nation has allowed or attempted a free market system.

So the answer is technically that shitty centralized economies have stood up better than libertarian economies, because they have at least managed a period of existence

anywhere

ever
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean dogen just even mentioned beforehand that a free market economy is in a category of "shit that has never happened" and then this is the pushback?

This is a common(ly asinine) debating tactic of libertarians — measuring an ideal which has never been tested versus the extant messy realities of statism, or even just democracy (!) that they can point at. Political anarchists do it too. Communists and other assorted marxist schlubs voraciously separate themselves from the failures of communism in practice (no, no, those weren't really communist states) then do the same thing, because once their caveats are in place about what twu communism is, no twu communism ever happened but of course would be so much more super awesome than the apparently fundamentally flawed realities of capitalist states.

This is like me debating that my Randomocracy ideal (where all governmental decisions are decided from the output of random number generators) is so much better than human-led governmental processes because <list> — which Randomocracy would of course not have!
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Dogen wrote:
I'm interested by this idea that if a situation existed which has never existed before - like a totally free market - it would be a utopia of freedom and prosperity for all.


Utopia? You go get that strawman!

How do free markets stand up when compared to centralized government control? How were things in Eastern Europe and the USSR for most of the 20th century? How are things in Venezuela lately?

Yeah, yeah... you picked out the hyperbolic part of the post and then conveniently ignored the part where I talked about actual problems with your theory. Then you compared free markets to pseudo-planned economies of so-called socialist governments as though anyone in this conversation is advocating for them in the same post where you accuse me of a strawman. Does your battery run on hypocrisy, sir?
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
I mean dogen just even mentioned beforehand that a free market economy is in a category of "shit that has never happened" and then this is the pushback?

This is a common(ly asinine) debating tactic of libertarians — measuring an ideal which has never been tested versus the extant messy realities of statism, or even just democracy (!) that they can point at. Political anarchists do it too. Communists and other assorted marxist schlubs voraciously separate themselves from the failures of communism in practice (no, no, those weren't really communist states) then do the same thing, because once their caveats are in place about what twu communism is, no twu communism ever happened but of course would be so much more super awesome than the apparently fundamentally flawed realities of capitalist states.

This is like me debating that my Randomocracy ideal (where all governmental decisions are decided from the output of random number generators) is so much better than human-led governmental processes because <list> — which Randomocracy would of course not have!


Actually, we have tried something *very close* to Libertarian ideals.

It was called the "Articles of the Confederation". Heck, the federal government couldn't even lay taxes! They could only 'request' money from the states.

IT WAS A FARKING DISASTER.
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"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even in abstruse theory I can't see the articles of confederacy as being a libertarian experiment or practice — libertarianism only vies for the fragmentation of federal powers insofar as it is attempting to create opportunities to enhance removal of government influence in sum, but any state that engages in the standard statist retinue (taxation! public roads!) is as illegitimate as a comparable federal structure between the states.

Well, I guess unless you are the brand of pseudolibertarian who drank too much of the STATES RIGHTS HUR koolaid and now exist in a state (no pun intended) of mind that presumes state-level systems to be mostly a-ok in terms of violation of nonaggression principles where the federal government would have no legitimacy doing so.

You see this a lot. In fact, with our good friends Ron & Rand, who constantly agitate for states' rights dilemmas, when not ultimately proving that they're opportunistic shell games in human form
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
Again. Is your assertion that this would not have happened without Jim Crow Laws? You already admitted societal pressures led to the passing of those laws. Without those laws, would those groups simply not put pressure on businesses?

If we'd just ignored all of that terrible unpleasantness it would have sorted itself out, Lord Percival Whiteface. Or just continued, ignored. But either way, it would seem like it didn't exist to us, and it would cease ruining our cotillions!


hey, haven't you heard andrew napolitano? slavery itself would have just faded away if that nasty old president lincoln hadn't started messing with the southern states! no slavery, no jim crow, everything would have been sweetness and light.

stupid lincoln. it's all his fault.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Dogen wrote:
I'm interested by this idea that if a situation existed which has never existed before - like a totally free market - it would be a utopia of freedom and prosperity for all.


Utopia? You go get that strawman!

How do free markets stand up when compared to centralized government control? How were things in Eastern Europe and the USSR for most of the 20th century? How are things in Venezuela lately?


Without chiming on on the actual debate, I can say as a lurker for many years that the amount of people here that can accurately describe fallacious arguments is significantly less than the amount of people who claim to see them.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 356

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Sam wrote:
I mean dogen just even mentioned beforehand that a free market economy is in a category of "shit that has never happened" and then this is the pushback?

This is a common(ly asinine) debating tactic of libertarians — measuring an ideal which has never been tested versus the extant messy realities of statism, or even just democracy (!) that they can point at. Political anarchists do it too. Communists and other assorted marxist schlubs voraciously separate themselves from the failures of communism in practice (no, no, those weren't really communist states) then do the same thing, because once their caveats are in place about what twu communism is, no twu communism ever happened but of course would be so much more super awesome than the apparently fundamentally flawed realities of capitalist states.

This is like me debating that my Randomocracy ideal (where all governmental decisions are decided from the output of random number generators) is so much better than human-led governmental processes because <list> — which Randomocracy would of course not have!


Actually, we have tried something *very close* to Libertarian ideals.

It was called the "Articles of the Confederation". Heck, the federal government couldn't even lay taxes! They could only 'request' money from the states.

IT WAS A FARKING DISASTER.


I'm sorry, but that's grossly inaccurate. As identified by the articles, it was a confederation, where the majority of the power lies with the regional bureaucracies, instead of the national government. In this case, the states.

That's in no way going to limit the sort of laws that libertarians disagree with, or the sort of control the government can extend over the people. It just determines where the control comes from.


There is no real relationship between confederation style governments and libertarians.
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read this article and it reminded me of this thread.

Hate the Gays, Hate the Capitalists
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