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March 8: Talks about Government
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Quote:
Libertarians agree that discriminating is stupid from a business perspective


No they don't. They just want to be allowed to discriminate and they try to coach this desire in the comforting platitude that it wouldn't happen.*


No, they admit discrimination would probably happen, but they acknowledge that a business owner who skips hiring the most qualified person for a given job because of race or gender or sexual preference or for having a tattoo or whatever means that a less discriminatory competitor will have the opportunity to hire the most qualified person.
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Rising_Phoenix



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few of the "libetarians" I have met actually have political-identity issues. They fit more the archetype of classical liberalism rather than the more modern "almost no government is best government" (classical liberals want to keep the merket economy, but understand that it is not perfect).

Then there are the nutjobs who want no government but a market economy (impossible since without a government no-one is forced to solve transactions through an established currency), and then there are the "make government so crippled it is almost useless" kind.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Sam wrote:
Quote:
Libertarians agree that discriminating is stupid from a business perspective


No they don't. They just want to be allowed to discriminate and they try to coach this desire in the comforting platitude that it wouldn't happen.*


No, they admit discrimination would probably happen, but they acknowledge that a business owner who skips hiring the most qualified person for a given job because of race or gender or sexual preference or for having a tattoo or whatever means that a less discriminatory competitor will have the opportunity to hire the most qualified person.

Considering that it has been shown in various fields that employers will rank female résumés lower than the exact same résumés of a male candidate, and that rather than the sexist companies going out of business they just continue to be sexist, somehow I don't think things would work out that well.
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1833
Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Sam wrote:
Quote:
Libertarians agree that discriminating is stupid from a business perspective


No they don't. They just want to be allowed to discriminate and they try to coach this desire in the comforting platitude that it wouldn't happen.*


No, they admit discrimination would probably happen, but they acknowledge that a business owner who skips hiring the most qualified person for a given job because of race or gender or sexual preference or for having a tattoo or whatever means that a less discriminatory competitor will have the opportunity to hire the most qualified person.

Considering that it has been shown in various fields that employers will rank female résumés lower than the exact same résumés of a male candidate, and that rather than the sexist companies going out of business they just continue to be sexist, somehow I don't think things would work out that well.


The Civil Rights Act has been law for fifty years, yet you're telling me sexist businesses still exist? How can this be?
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Sam wrote:
Quote:
Libertarians agree that discriminating is stupid from a business perspective


No they don't. They just want to be allowed to discriminate and they try to coach this desire in the comforting platitude that it wouldn't happen.*


No, they admit discrimination would probably happen, but they acknowledge that a business owner who skips hiring the most qualified person for a given job because of race or gender or sexual preference or for having a tattoo or whatever means that a less discriminatory competitor will have the opportunity to hire the most qualified person.

Considering that it has been shown in various fields that employers will rank female résumés lower than the exact same résumés of a male candidate, and that rather than the sexist companies going out of business they just continue to be sexist, somehow I don't think things would work out that well.


The Civil Rights Act has been law for fifty years, yet you're telling me sexist businesses still exist? How can this be?


Because there's a large number of people who believe that, unless someone says "I hate black people" or "Women are inferior", they can't POSSIBLY be racist or sexist?

Because laws don't magically altered ingrained attitudes, they just have the ability to lessen the damage done/punish the transgressor when they let those attitudes harm others?

Because proving what's inside a person's head is going to be really, really hard until we get telepaths?
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

because people manage to come up with reasons why women aren't qualified for jobs, like the applicant has to be able to lift 20 lbs and _everyone_ knows women are physically weaker so you don't even need to explicitly test that?
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Civil Rights laws didn't address sexism - at least not adequately. That's why people are pushing for the Equal Rights Amendment.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are they trying to pass that again? that would be great!
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Civil Rights laws didn't address sexism - at least not adequately. That's why people are pushing for the Equal Rights Amendment.


But it's unnecessary! After all, we all know that game theory and perfectly rational actors means no one would really discriminate, they'd lose money!
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mouse



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

right! just like we all know the market always produces the best goods at the best price! but only if it's a totally free market!
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the southern US businessmen totally would have ended segregation by themselves if people hadn't protested and that meddling US government hadn't stepped in.

I think the ERA is constantly being proposed, but is not often voted on. I'm pretty sure it's just always being pushed by somebody.
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern US businessmen had to abide by Jim Crow laws at the state and local level that were erroneously found constitutional by the Supreme Court in Plessy v. Ferguson. You won't find many libertarians who list that decision anywhere near the Court's best.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Southern US businessmen had to abide by Jim Crow laws at the state and local level that were erroneously found constitutional by the Supreme Court in Plessy v. Ferguson. You won't find many libertarians who list that decision anywhere near the Court's best.


So, if it hadn't been for Jim Crow Laws, you think they would have desegregated voluntarily?

Because you're also forgetting there would have been a very big *societal* pressure on them, even without the laws.
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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Southern US businessmen had to abide by Jim Crow laws at the state and local level that were erroneously found constitutional by the Supreme Court in Plessy v. Ferguson. You won't find many libertarians who list that decision anywhere near the Court's best.


So, if it hadn't been for Jim Crow Laws, you think they would have desegregated voluntarily?

Because you're also forgetting there would have been a very big *societal* pressure on them, even without the laws.


Why would legislators have considered Jim Crow laws to be necessary if everyone was racist?

"Societal" pressures, like KKK activities, helped put people into power in the south during Reconstruction so that those laws could be passed.

Quote:
The political terrorism was effective. While Republican gubernatorial candidate Rufus B. Bullock carried the state in April 1868 elections, by November Democratic presidential candidate Horatio Seymour was in the lead. In some counties the contrast was incredible. In John Reed's Oglethorpe County, 1,144 people had voted Republican in April, while only 116 dared to vote Republican in November when Reed's armed Klansmen surrounded the polls. In Columbia County armed Klansmen not only intimidated voters but even cowed federal soldiers sent to guard the polling place. Not surprisingly, while 1,222 votes had been cast in Columbia County for Republican governor Rufus Bullock in April, only one vote was cast for Republican presidential candidate Ulysses Grant in November 1868. Similar political terrorism and control of the polling places help account for Georgia's quick "redemption" and return to conservative white Democratic control by late 1871.


Societal pressures are doing the opposite today re: gay marriage. Young people feel far less threatened by the idea of same sex marriage.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm interested by this idea that if a situation existed which has never existed before - like a totally free market - it would be a utopia of freedom and prosperity for all. We just know it. That's faith. You guys should write hymns and organize as a church, maybe you could get out of paying taxes...

Never mind that the closer we've gotten to truly deregulating anything the less freedom there has been (see child labor, women's rights), and the more resource holders have ignored those who have nothing (see France after abolishing tariffs in 1754 and the subsequent famine a decade later when merchants were shipping all the bread to other countries for higher profits).
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