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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
i don't know if we've reached a peak where the sisterhood's getting far more blatant in being blunted political mouthpieces for anti-porn radfem


Female-coded character: I don't want to have sex with someone like you/keep the company of someone like you.

Dudebros: omg you ANTIPORN RADFEMINIST

Why is this always such a predictable reaction to a woman voicing her sexual autonomy and her autonomy in how she spends her time? No, don't answer that.
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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Hekateras wrote:
I just realised a thing upon rereading some of the early Sisterhood arc comics.

The tome of feminism used to be much more docile until the Malevolum bomfed it. Since then, it's been consistently far more aggressive and ready to jump at people and attack them and, well, radical, which is important to remember when deciding if it's supposed to be a representation of Tat's views.

Kind of fitting, too, that a previously more moderate book became more radical and violent after being hurt by a patriarchy book. Razz


i am quoting this in hopes that it will improve the chances of people actually reading it and thereby remember that they are arguing against THE OPINIONS OF A BOOK IN A COMIC STRIP. and not even a book that has been a major character is said strip. not clear why this book should suddenly be interpreted as espousing all that is true and correct in the universe. except i guess that comic strip characters are never caricatures and every single one of them perfectly reflects the author's views and beliefs.


Thank you. You know what this reminds me of? This one study that suggested people who are prejudiced against a group are more likely to see the actions of an individual as representative of that whole group and as fodder for sweeping realisations. Same here. All these people made uncomfortable by the discussion being so *desperate* to discredit the (complex, diverse and non-homogenous) movement entirely by elevating the views and actions of a few to the views and actions of the whole.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 361

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hekateras wrote:
mouse wrote:
Hekateras wrote:
I just realised a thing upon rereading some of the early Sisterhood arc comics.

The tome of feminism used to be much more docile until the Malevolum bomfed it. Since then, it's been consistently far more aggressive and ready to jump at people and attack them and, well, radical, which is important to remember when deciding if it's supposed to be a representation of Tat's views.

Kind of fitting, too, that a previously more moderate book became more radical and violent after being hurt by a patriarchy book. Razz


i am quoting this in hopes that it will improve the chances of people actually reading it and thereby remember that they are arguing against THE OPINIONS OF A BOOK IN A COMIC STRIP. and not even a book that has been a major character is said strip. not clear why this book should suddenly be interpreted as espousing all that is true and correct in the universe. except i guess that comic strip characters are never caricatures and every single one of them perfectly reflects the author's views and beliefs.


Thank you. You know what this reminds me of? This one study that suggested people who are prejudiced against a group are more likely to see the actions of an individual as representative of that whole group and as fodder for sweeping realisations. Same here. All these people made uncomfortable by the discussion being so *desperate* to discredit the (complex, diverse and non-homogenous) movement entirely by elevating the views and actions of a few to the views and actions of the whole.


Is that the one study that cuts both ways?

I read that one study too.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hekateras wrote:
mouse wrote:
Hekateras wrote:
I just realised a thing upon rereading some of the early Sisterhood arc comics.

The tome of feminism used to be much more docile until the Malevolum bomfed it. Since then, it's been consistently far more aggressive and ready to jump at people and attack them and, well, radical, which is important to remember when deciding if it's supposed to be a representation of Tat's views.

Kind of fitting, too, that a previously more moderate book became more radical and violent after being hurt by a patriarchy book. Razz


i am quoting this in hopes that it will improve the chances of people actually reading it and thereby remember that they are arguing against THE OPINIONS OF A BOOK IN A COMIC STRIP. and not even a book that has been a major character is said strip. not clear why this book should suddenly be interpreted as espousing all that is true and correct in the universe. except i guess that comic strip characters are never caricatures and every single one of them perfectly reflects the author's views and beliefs.


Thank you. You know what this reminds me of? This one study that suggested people who are prejudiced against a group are more likely to see the actions of an individual as representative of that whole group and as fodder for sweeping realisations. Same here. All these people made uncomfortable by the discussion being so *desperate* to discredit the (complex, diverse and non-homogenous) movement entirely by elevating the views and actions of a few to the views and actions of the whole.


Since we're talking feminism, can I voice my annoyance that mouse said pretty much the same thing here as I did about the whole sentient book thing? He even allcapsed a similar phrase as I did. Is this some "magic man sparkles" going on or what?
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9525

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hekateras wrote:
Sam wrote:
i don't know if we've reached a peak where the sisterhood's getting far more blatant in being blunted political mouthpieces for anti-porn radfem


Female-coded character: I don't want to have sex with someone like you/keep the company of someone like you.

Dudebros: omg you ANTIPORN RADFEMINIST

Why is this always such a predictable reaction to a woman voicing her sexual autonomy and her autonomy in how she spends her time? No, don't answer that.


Yeah I can't answer that because the thing you think is being responded to is not actually happening?

I indicate that there has been a possible already visited peak in the comic ideologically mouthpiecing anti-porn radfem views because there was a possibly already visited peak in the comic ideologically mouthpiecing anti-porn radfem views.

per 'anti porn' and 'radfem' these are real things with real definitions, not automatically pejorative
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
It's been "blatant" for a long time. What you're calling "more blatant" is really more like continued explorations on more facets of the theme.

Calling it "blatant" says more about your own comfort level with that continuing discussion than it does about anything Tat is doing.

Don't get the wrong impression. I had the chance to sympathize with the message then (as well as having several interesting discussions here) and now I get the chance to like the characters better.

I guess that what I meant was exactly that, an exploration of character. Bad wording. The idea of them not being exactly perfect and the idea of ambiguity here and there.
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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:


Is that the one study that cuts both ways?


I read that one study too.


...Okay? Good for you?

That wasn't intended as a gender thing, you know, so I'm a bit befuddled by you rebutting it with some implication of "women do it too!!!!1!", because duh, prejudice isn't restricted to one gender.

I was pointing out that the constant attempts to elevate individual instances to being typical of feminism as a whole seemed pretty damn much like a prejudiced person trying to feed their confirmation bias.

Sam wrote:
Hekateras wrote:
Sam wrote:
i don't know if we've reached a peak where the sisterhood's getting far more blatant in being blunted political mouthpieces for anti-porn radfem


Female-coded character: I don't want to have sex with someone like you/keep the company of someone like you.

Dudebros: omg you ANTIPORN RADFEMINIST

Why is this always such a predictable reaction to a woman voicing her sexual autonomy and her autonomy in how she spends her time? No, don't answer that.


Yeah I can't answer that because the thing you think is being responded to is not actually happening?

I indicate that there has been a possible already visited peak in the comic ideologically mouthpiecing anti-porn radfem views because there was a possibly already visited peak in the comic ideologically mouthpiecing anti-porn radfem views.

per 'anti porn' and 'radfem' these are real things with real definitions, not automatically pejorative


I'm aware that you were referring to the comic as a whole, not this one strip. I was expressing my amusement that the timing you chose to express this view about the comic as a whole is in relation to a strip that makes no statement at all about porn and expresses no views which could be considered radfemi, i.e. wishing violence or oppression on men because they are men.

Not desiring the company of misogynists, even if said misogynists do happen to be important people, is hardly radical.


By the way, since I was rereading the early Sisterhood strips and it is now under debate whether feminism means discarding the works of misogynists entirely (this, at least, has been suggested as an interpretation) or merely consuming them critically, allow me to remind you of this:



Notice that instead of taking those misogynist-authored books away from Criminy, Xanthe merely adds an equal collection of books by women and books about feminism to the pile.

I think that says it all, really.

And while I'd hesitate to call Xanthe's view of feminism to be the author mouthpiece view any more than any other character's, I think it is worth noting that so far, Xanthe has been the one most representative of feminist social justice activism the way it's taught in schools rather than on angry blogs, with an emphasis on education and providing the resources for change rather than shaming or personal attacks. She's been harsh occasionally, but it's the way criticism in general can be harsh because it's blunt and doesn't beat around the bush or try to assuage the recipient's feelings. Plus, as her home indicates, she isn't ashamed of liking "girly" things the way Monique seems to be now (which is a quite common fledgling feminist misconception, as a kid I sneered at girly things too... *sigh*)


EDIT:

Since we're on the subject of "this comic has degenerated into nothing but lots of radfem moralising" again, I will quote vector010 from this thread just a few months ago:

vector010 wrote:

Just because, I decided to go back and do some counting. Broke it up into 4 categories. Comics that had even the slightest appearance of the sisterhood (even them in the background in one panel), comics that had overt feminism, comics with implied feminism, and comics with no determinable feminism and no appearance of the sisterhood. The first three categories can obviously have overlap, so one comic may be counted multiple times, once for each category that applies. Over the past 65 comics we find, 18.4% (12) comics where the sisterhood makes and appearance, 3.08% (2) comics with overt feminism, 10.77% (7) comics with implied feminism, and 76.92% (50) comics with no appearance of sisterhood and no obvious feminism.


Oh yes, this comic is all one dimensional self bashing for not being a eunuch.</sarcasm>

Source: Math, is cool!
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17209
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Hekateras wrote:
mouse wrote:
Hekateras wrote:
I just realised a thing upon rereading some of the early Sisterhood arc comics.

The tome of feminism used to be much more docile until the Malevolum bomfed it. Since then, it's been consistently far more aggressive and ready to jump at people and attack them and, well, radical, which is important to remember when deciding if it's supposed to be a representation of Tat's views.

Kind of fitting, too, that a previously more moderate book became more radical and violent after being hurt by a patriarchy book. Razz


i am quoting this in hopes that it will improve the chances of people actually reading it and thereby remember that they are arguing against THE OPINIONS OF A BOOK IN A COMIC STRIP. and not even a book that has been a major character is said strip. not clear why this book should suddenly be interpreted as espousing all that is true and correct in the universe. except i guess that comic strip characters are never caricatures and every single one of them perfectly reflects the author's views and beliefs.


Thank you. You know what this reminds me of? This one study that suggested people who are prejudiced against a group are more likely to see the actions of an individual as representative of that whole group and as fodder for sweeping realisations. Same here. All these people made uncomfortable by the discussion being so *desperate* to discredit the (complex, diverse and non-homogenous) movement entirely by elevating the views and actions of a few to the views and actions of the whole.


Since we're talking feminism, can I voice my annoyance that mouse said pretty much the same thing here as I did about the whole sentient book thing? He even allcapsed a similar phrase as I did. Is this some "magic man sparkles" going on or what?


i don't think i get "magic man sparkles" on account of i am not a man. and i had the whole "IT'S ONLY A BOOK" reaction pretty much from the start of the thread, but it was already 4 pages long by the time i read it, and Hekateras said it (and quite nicely) right at the end where it was easy to quote. and in any event, i figured it was worth saying again because no one seemed to be listening.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 1098
Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever I encounter something in Sinfest that I wouldn't necessarily support, I just recall the fact that Sinfest is a fictional story in a fictional universe where things don't necessarily work the same way.
The opinions reflected are the opinions of the characters and perhaps sometimes the author at times, but they do not define my reality, nor do they need to.
If a character in Sinfest believes that pornography is necessarily an evil thing because it provides sexual stimulation without an actual human relationship, then perhaps that is an ethical reality in Sinfest; there is no need, however, for me to adopt this view in my own reality.

At the end of the day, Sinfest is just a story about some people and their lives and interactions. And it doesn't need to be anything more than that. So I don't fret over its political messages. I just sit back and enjoy it.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
where things don't necessarily work the same way.


...so i should stop hoping my books will become sentient?

dang. i was hoping they would start reading themselves to me, because that's the only way i'm going to get through all the ones i've acquired.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i don't think i get "magic man sparkles" on account of i am not a man. and i had the whole "IT'S ONLY A BOOK" reaction pretty much from the start of the thread, but it was already 4 pages long by the time i read it, and Hekateras said it (and quite nicely) right at the end where it was easy to quote. and in any event, i figured it was worth saying again because no one seemed to be listening.


Fair enough. That has actually happened to me so many times this week, I'm probably a bit twitchy about it. Because it's stupid and terrible and frustrating and makes me want to punch things.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 361

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
Whenever I encounter something in Sinfest that I wouldn't necessarily support, I just recall the fact that Sinfest is a fictional story in a fictional universe where things don't necessarily work the same way.
The opinions reflected are the opinions of the characters and perhaps sometimes the author at times, but they do not define my reality, nor do they need to.
If a character in Sinfest believes that pornography is necessarily an evil thing because it provides sexual stimulation without an actual human relationship, then perhaps that is an ethical reality in Sinfest; there is no need, however, for me to adopt this view in my own reality.

At the end of the day, Sinfest used to be a story about some people and their lives and interactions. And it doesn't need to be anything more than that. So I don't fret over its political messages. I just sit back and enjoy it.


Fixed it.

I hang around because some story comes through still, but let's be honest, a lot of character interaction has fallen by the wayside. It's mostly an ideological commentary at this point. I'm not naysaying that, but let's call it what it is.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
Istancow wrote:
Whenever I encounter something in Sinfest that I wouldn't necessarily support, I just recall the fact that Sinfest is a fictional story in a fictional universe where things don't necessarily work the same way.
The opinions reflected are the opinions of the characters and perhaps sometimes the author at times, but they do not define my reality, nor do they need to.
If a character in Sinfest believes that pornography is necessarily an evil thing because it provides sexual stimulation without an actual human relationship, then perhaps that is an ethical reality in Sinfest; there is no need, however, for me to adopt this view in my own reality.

At the end of the day, Sinfest is a story about some people and their lives and interactions with occasional social commentary on gender issues. And it doesn't need to be anything more than that. So I don't fret over its political messages. I just sit back and enjoy it.


Fixed it.

I hang around because some story comes through still, but let's be honest, a lot of character interaction has fallen by the wayside. It's mostly an ideological commentary at this point. I'm not naysaying that, but let's call it what it is.

Re-fixed it.

Really, at this point it's not even frequent. Quite a lot of people perceive them as more dominant of the comic, but truth is that at this particular point lots of things are happening that don't have anything to do with that message.

I think someone posted the percentages at some point and it was less than a third at its peak months?

EDIT: By the way, "quite a lot of people" includes me. That was mostly during the political strips, though, which I found unbearable. Dunno the numbers for those ones but it felt like four out of five.
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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
Istancow wrote:
Whenever I encounter something in Sinfest that I wouldn't necessarily support, I just recall the fact that Sinfest is a fictional story in a fictional universe where things don't necessarily work the same way.
The opinions reflected are the opinions of the characters and perhaps sometimes the author at times, but they do not define my reality, nor do they need to.
If a character in Sinfest believes that pornography is necessarily an evil thing because it provides sexual stimulation without an actual human relationship, then perhaps that is an ethical reality in Sinfest; there is no need, however, for me to adopt this view in my own reality.

At the end of the day, Sinfest used to be a story about some people and their lives and interactions. And it doesn't need to be anything more than that. So I don't fret over its political messages. I just sit back and enjoy it.


Fixed it.

I hang around because some story comes through still, but let's be honest, a lot of character interaction has fallen by the wayside. It's mostly an ideological commentary at this point. I'm not naysaying that, but let's call it what it is.


I love how I quote a post on this very page demonstrating that, at least three months ago (and the figure likely staying similar now), the "ideological commentary' in ANY form made up like twenty percent of the strips AT BEST.

But sure, sure. "Mostly an ideological commentary". Of course.

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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
Istancow wrote:
Whenever I encounter something in Sinfest that I wouldn't necessarily support, I just recall the fact that Sinfest is a fictional story in a fictional universe where things don't necessarily work the same way.
The opinions reflected are the opinions of the characters and perhaps sometimes the author at times, but they do not define my reality, nor do they need to.
If a character in Sinfest believes that pornography is necessarily an evil thing because it provides sexual stimulation without an actual human relationship, then perhaps that is an ethical reality in Sinfest; there is no need, however, for me to adopt this view in my own reality.

At the end of the day, Sinfest is a story about some people and their lives and interactions with each other and cats and dogs and books and stuff and sometimes even boom. And it doesn't need to be anything more than that. So I don't fret over its political messages. I just sit back and enjoy it.


Fixed it.

I hang around because some story comes through still, but let's be honest, a lot of character interaction has fallen by the wayside. It's mostly an ideological commentary at this point. I'm not naysaying that, but let's call it what it is.

Re-fixed it.

Really, at this point it's not even frequent. Quite a lot of people perceive them as more dominant of the comic, but truth is that at this particular point lots of things are happening that don't have anything to do with that message.

I think someone posted the percentages at some point and it was less than a third at its peak months?

EDIT: By the way, "quite a lot of people" includes me. That was mostly during the political strips, though, which I found unbearable. Dunno the numbers for those ones but it felt like four out of five.

Re-re-fixed it.

I'm not participating in the conversation -- I just wanted to join in the fix-it chain. Carry on.
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