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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of homicides in taxis, you have more to worry about from meth heads and other hard drug users, which, statistically speaking, are more likely to be white.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here like half of the cab drivers are black. Usually Haitian, in my experience? And black people still have significant difficulty getting a cab in comparison to someone like myself, with my pasty white face and all. Deconstructing the reasons why could bring us back to the actual matters of perception and fairweather racial discrimination that are important, rather than a sidetrack that I guess is exploring whether this is pertaining to self-preservation methodologies in the mind of a cabbie. Or something?
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it probably has more to do with presumptions of status and net worth as opposed to safety concerns i.e. there's a prejudicial assumptions that you'll get less money from blacks than whites.

Taxi drivers know the risks of the actions they take, but are for the most part motivated by money. This is why they speed, run through red lights, and generally drive like maniacs (or at least enough of them do) in order to maximize profits. The more fares you book in a twelve hour shift, the more you make, it's that simple.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
I think it probably has more to do with presumptions of status and net worth as opposed to safety concerns i.e. there's a prejudicial assumptions that you'll get less money from blacks than whites.

Taxi drivers know the risks of the actions they take, but are for the most part motivated by money. This is why they speed, run through red lights, and generally drive like maniacs (or at least enough of them do) in order to maximize profits. The more fares you book in a twelve hour shift, the more you make, it's that simple.



So as to be clear, in a thread lambasting the stereotyping of a race, you just went ahead and stereotyped an entire group.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun: you make a lot of your use of words.

do you know the meaning of the word "fantasy"?

as in "Black Utopia Fantasy Story"?

hint: it doesn't mean something that is observed in the real world.
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
OklahomanSun: you make a lot of your use of words.

do you know the meaning of the word "fantasy"?

as in "Black Utopia Fantasy Story"?

hint: it doesn't mean something that is observed in the real world.


This has been addressed several times in the pages of this thread. I'll assume you didn't read them or are uninterested in a legitimate response.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i find no evidence that you have defined 'fantasy'. i am talking about a strip that clearly identifies itself as a fantasy. you are talking about some totally imaginary strip that is only in your head, and you are using it to justify a black woman having to just accept that she is being completely unreasonable to think that a world might exist where she can count on getting a cab whenever she wants it because OH THE HORRORS OF BEING A CABDRIVER IN THE GHETTOS!!!!!!

even though, you know, the ghetto has nothing to do with it.


but you clearly aren't reading even your own posts, so you know - whatever.
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i find no evidence that you have defined 'fantasy'. i am talking about a strip that clearly identifies itself as a fantasy. you are talking about some totally imaginary strip that is only in your head, and you are using it to justify a black woman having to just accept that she is being completely unreasonable to think that a world might exist where she can count on getting a cab whenever she wants it because OH THE HORRORS OF BEING A CABDRIVER IN THE GHETTOS!!!!!!

even though, you know, the ghetto has nothing to do with it.


but you clearly aren't reading even your own posts, so you know - whatever.


The title of the piece in her strip is her "fantasy", but it's clearly a commentary on a very real situation.

I'll address this yet one more time.


1: Yes, I do absolutely wish that black citizens could have the taxis stop for them every time they whistled one down.

2: I don't believe that when the taxis pass them by, that it's usually based on a reasonable belief of danger

3: I did however, start posting in this thread because the implication was being made that there was nothing behind the failure for taxis to stop besides racism.

4: I decided, therefore, to discuss the other side of the coin, which is the statistically low but still possible risk of injury or death on the job, especially in high crime areas, which do have a tendency to be populated by minorities.

5: I then addressed clearly my understanding of why those areas have turned into high crime areas, and the atrocities perpetrated by society to create the zones of no hope and no opportunity. I made it quite clear that I don't think there's any basis for blaming race on the violence in the areas.

6: Having done that, and after a couple other people did mention that I had some reasonable points, I thought that I'd contributed what I wanted to the thread, but then an individual called me a racist.



So let me just make it clear, now that I hope I've addressed your comment on fantasy. She's entitled to her fantasy. It's not really a fantasy though, is it? It's the author's commentary through one of his characters that there is a situation in the world that's wrong and that should be rectified. It's not a fantasy, it's a commentary on a flawed reality.

That's a reality that I think should be fixed, but it's something that needs to be fixed by a holistic approach. It gets fixed by investing into a more egalitarian approach to city funding, to jobs distribution and school infrastructure. It gets fixed by a more appropriate policing method than "lock up the black kids as soon as possible" since we know that early criminal records dooms most young black youths to a life without opportunity.

Until those things happen, yes, there will be fear.


Perhaps I can fix this with my last statement on the subject. I'm not a racist. Maybe the greatest and most heart stoppingly gorgeous woman I ever dated was black. Her brother, my best friend, was black. I grew up in a neighborhood in Chicago with a diverse ethnic background.

What I was, was afraid, and so I can understand taxi drivers and I can understand delivery drivers.

It made me frustrated that people were conflating fear with racism. I was personally robbed 4 times. Each time it was a black guy in his teens or twenties, similar dress, similar behaviour, similar attitude. Overall, we got robbed 20 some times that summer, all by black guys in and around the problem area.

So yes, the next time I took a pizza to a guy that looked like the guys that robbed me, my heart rate went up and I was afraid. It's not as easy to rationalise away your fear in those situations. It's similar with some of those taxi drivers. I'm sure some of them really are racist, but I'm also sure that a lot of them are just afraid from either personal bad experiences or from bad experiences of their colleagues.

To label them and me as racists is untrue and unfair.

If a girl was raped, and she was afraid when she was around a man alone in a room or on a street, would she be a sexist? That's essentially the same thing.
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Ennis



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:

Perhaps I can fix this with my last statement on the subject. I'm not a racist. Maybe the greatest and most heart stoppingly gorgeous woman I ever dated was black. Her brother, my best friend, was black. I grew up in a neighborhood in Chicago with a diverse ethnic background.

Dating and knowing black people doesn't mean you can't be a racist, or participate in racism. This is literally the "I can't be racist, I have black friends!" argument.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
I think it probably has more to do with presumptions of status and net worth as opposed to safety concerns i.e. there's a prejudicial assumptions that you'll get less money from blacks than whites.

Taxi drivers know the risks of the actions they take, but are for the most part motivated by money. This is why they speed, run through red lights, and generally drive like maniacs (or at least enough of them do) in order to maximize profits. The more fares you book in a twelve hour shift, the more you make, it's that simple.



So as to be clear, in a thread lambasting the stereotyping of a race, you just went ahead and stereotyped an entire group.


Who did I stereotype? I'm going from the personal experience of A) having been a cab driver, B) having friends who are currently cab drivers and C) having a cousin who's been a cabby for quite a long time.

Me saying that cabbies make their decisions primarily based upon financial motivations is not stereotyping.

A server might give you good table service, be pleasant, smile, and refill you drinks promptly all because they're a nice person, but at the end of the day I would still posit that most servers are just trying to get better (if any) tips.

Being a cabby isn't much different. In many cases, cabbies are sub-contractors working for themselves-- this means the companies they work for don't have to worry about minimum wage laws.

I could go on more about being cab driver and their motivations, but hey, I'd probably just be stereotyping.
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:

Perhaps I can fix this with my last statement on the subject. I'm not a racist. Maybe the greatest and most heart stoppingly gorgeous woman I ever dated was black. Her brother, my best friend, was black. I grew up in a neighborhood in Chicago with a diverse ethnic background.

Dating and knowing black people doesn't mean you can't be a racist, or participate in racism. This is literally the "I can't be racist, I have black friends!" argument.


You seem to be ignoring the rest of what I said in order to focus on this one point.

As I mentioned on page 3.... I'm well versed in the real issues that create a high crime area. Lack of job opportunity, lack of family support structure, an infrastructure of existing crime that pulls in youth at a vulnerable age, an unofficial segregation that keeps them cut off from the larger society and creates an insular culture that turns in on each other. Police attitudes that seek to punish and incarcerate as soon as possible, creating an impossible situation where many young black kids have criminal records before they even have driver's licences. Schools that are little more than warehousing.....

Oh yes, I'm fully aware of how the US's greater society has created a pressure cooker in the ghettos where young kids have almost no alternatives but crime. I'm fully aware that it has absolutely nothing to do with the race of any person
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:

So let me just make it clear, now that I hope I've addressed your comment on fantasy. She's entitled to her fantasy. It's not really a fantasy though, is it? It's the author's commentary through one of his characters that there is a situation in the world that's wrong and that should be rectified. It's not a fantasy, it's a commentary on a flawed reality.


thank you for finally allowing her to have her fantasy. your general tenor so far seems to have been that it was completely unthinkable that she hope to have such a thing.

and _all_ fantasies, in a way, are commentaries on reality. they are what we wish reality would be, instead of what it is. true, for some people fantasies involve having your own personal unicorn or being a werewolf. those fantasies are unlikely ever to come true.

but a lot of people have dreams (or fantasies) about things that _can_ come true. and once voiced, people work to -make- them true. they are under no illusions that the fantasy is real - that is why they have to work for them. things like a world where there is no poverty and no crime, and cab drivers don't have to worry about being assaulted and minorities don't have to worry about getting a cab - those are things we can work towards. we clearly aren't there now, we may not be able to perfectly achieve them - but we can get closer. but you have to start by stating your goal - your fantasy. like, the fantasy of being able to flag down a cab anytime you want.

and on the racism thing - you have yet to explain why, when confronted with a comic that has no setting, no indication of where the characters are, you immediately assumed that a black character couldn't get a cab because she was in the ghetto. even though you yourself said cabs don't tend to go into the ghetto, and istancow pointed out that she is specifically stated to be flagging down a passing cab, suggesting that she is not, by your criteria, even in the ghetto. you may believe that, all things being equal, black and white people get cabs at equal rates - but the ABC study that was linked (twice!) clearly demonstrated that that is not, in fact, the case. even in settings far removed from the ghetto.

so, again - why did you immediately associate a black character with crime in the ghetto?
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diagram12345



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
diagram12345 wrote:
mouse wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:

1: I never assumed that Clio lives in a ghetto. I've actually discussed this exact issue with Hussan and other black friends, as a matter of fact, and the truth is that the issue in question comes up almost invariably in or very near a ghetto. If you are black in a "normal" area you can often get a cab, as far as I can tell from anecdotal evidence. So when I addressed this strip, I'm referring to the real situation and where it happens, rather than a cartoon character making a generalised reference to an issue.


if you never assumed that clio lives in a ghetto, why did your entire response consist of stories about how dangerous it was driving into a ghetto for business purposes? you say black people can "often" get a cab in "normal" areas. i'm white, and i _always_ get a cab. did you stop to wonder why white people always get cabs, and black people (even by your own account) don't - even in places where this is no reason to fear crime? (and read the story Moor linked before you answer)

and even if it is because she lives in a ghetto - did you stop to think how she was being penalized just because of that? you say yourself, you ran the numbers, 99% of the time you knew you weren't going to get robbed. that means, when your business decided to stop delivering there, 99% of your customers were denied a service, through no fault of their own.


I find it frightening that you think that the safety of delivery people is less important than the ability for people to get food delivered to them.


and it doesn't occur to you that _both_ situations are bad? i agree, delivery people should be safe. i happen to think black people should be safe also, and should be able to get food and the occasional cab ride.

there are many ways to make clio's fantasy come true. it doesn't have to start and end with "keep the delivery people safe, and screw all the innocents". yes, the safety of the delivery people is important. what you want to ignore is that there are other people in this situation who matter as well.

unless, of course, you think those who live in ghettos don't actually count as people....


What? This is... honestly a bit of a strange conversation to me.

"what you want to ignore is that there are other people in this situation who matter as well."

The consequences of not delivering: some people don't have the convenience of getting food delivered to their door. The consequences of delivering: some people will be murdered, threatened, and/or injured. Why are you trying to equate the two situations?

There's a legitimate point to be made here about someone automatically equating black people with "the ghetto," but I just can't comprehend why you're trying to equate potential violence against people with the inconvenience of not having food delivered to your door.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about "delivery people should be safe" and "the safety of delivery people is important" is confusing you?

and what about "there are many ways to make clio's fantasy come true." says that her fantasy requires some people putting their lives at risk? her full fantasy might be that there will be no poverty, no crime against delivery people, so that any cabbie is not afraid to pick anyone up, and pizza will be delivered everywhere..

just because two problems aren't equally severe doesn't mean it's right to ignore the lesser one. because it's not just about getting food delivered to you door - it's about getting _anything_ delivered to your door. or a cab at your door. why is it right that a law-abiding person (and OklahomanSun himself says 99 out of 100 deliveries did not involve a robbery) - why is it right that that person has to just accept even an inconvenience that the majority of people don't have to? why is it not a problem that some people are forced to accept a second-class existence?

the problems of a pizza delivery guy are part of the problems of the whole world. why is your only goal to keep that guy safe? i find _that_ conversation a bit strange. there are, after all, at least two solutions to the delivery situation: 1) you stop delivery to any place that looks iffy, leaving the people in that place trapped in a world not only riddled with crime and poverty, but deprived of pizza or 2) you fix the world so there isn't any poverty, and none of the crime driven by that property, and pizza guys can deliver everywhere! you seem to feel that 1) is sufficient, so why bother trying for 2)? i, on the other hand, am all in favor of pushing on to 2). maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow - but if i don't even think it's worth doing (because hey, one just results in yet one more minor inconvenience for some people who are Not Me!), i wouldn't even make the attempt.

never forget - we are discussing a FANTASY. not the world-as-it-is, but the-world-as-we-would-like-it-to-be. why are your fantasies so cramped?

but since apparently you need everything spelled in black and white, let me reiterate:
NO, i do not think the risk of being murdered, injured or even threatened is acceptable, and i do not equate it with the inconvenience of not having a pizza at your door in 30 minutes.
YES, i understand that in the world as we now live it is not this way. i even understand that the best decision to guarantee safety may be to restrict delivery areas.

but i still think that a world in which that decision can be made without even considering the impact (however minor) it has on people who want it is not a perfect world, and that it should - and can - be improved. that's MY fantasy.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what do black people have to do with safety for those good workers?

The implication is awful, but you really make it sound like black people are dangerous and the drivers put themselves in danger when stopping for them.
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