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May 12: Holy shit
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
In that case I'd say you're reading too much into it.
...do you even know what you're talking about? Because I don't.
I added the sarcasm sign to indicate that I don't actually believe what I said in my original post.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
In that case I'd say you're reading too much into it.
...do you even know what you're talking about? Because I don't.
I added the sarcasm sign to indicate that I don't actually believe what I said in my original post.


Yes, I was aware of that.

Hence my second post indicating that I actually did believe what I said when I referred to your original post.

So therefore in your now third post, when you ask if I'm in any understanding of what I'm talking about, I believe that this sums it up.

1: In your original post, you make a comment that the strip is essentially a vehicle for a physical gag. You use some emoticons that create the implication of some sarcasm.

2: I affirm your statement, because the strip really is just a vehicle for a physical gag, with a bit of tertiary reference to how the situation was a bit wild.

3: You make a second post clearly noting that you were being sarcastic in the first post.

4: I make a post indicating my clear understanding of your second post that indicates your sarcasm in your first post, then reiterating the fact that the strip was essentially just a physical gag, and that if you were being sarcastic about believing the strip was just a gag, you were reading too much into it.

5: You then make the above quoted third post, strangely implying that I was unclear as to your meaning in the second post, even though my reply to your second post would seem to be quite clear.

6: I make this post, which hopefully clears up the entire issue. Yes, I understood what you meant, and yes, I still believe that the strip was essentially just a gag strip with very little ulterior meaning in it, and yes I do believe if you think there's anything else of meaning in that strip, you're stretching it quite a lot.



Does that fully satisfy your curiosity about whether or not I know what I'm talking about, and also illuminate it so that you know what I'm talking about?
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, there's the rub: I never actually stated what I really got from this strip, ergo I couldn't have "read too much into it." You just decided on your own that I saw something more than a physical gag, and that's what annoyed me. In fact, what continues to annoy me is the way you think you know what people are thinking, so much better than they do. You consistently claim to have such a clear understanding of Tat & his methods, all the while complaining about the comic. That annoys me, and that inspired my post - which I now regret writing because this entire discussion is scratching the backs of my eyes.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
Ah, there's the rub: I never actually stated what I really got from this strip, ergo I couldn't have "read too much into it." You just decided on your own that I saw something more than a physical gag, and that's what annoyed me. In fact, what continues to annoy me is the way you think you know what people are thinking, so much better than they do. You consistently claim to have such a clear understanding of Tat & his methods, all the while complaining about the comic. That annoys me, and that inspired my post - which I now regret writing because this entire discussion is scratching the backs of my eyes.


Let's be clear.

I operate in a world where meaning exists in statements.

You indicated you were sarcastic when you said that the strip existed as a vehicle for the physical gag.

That indicates that you don't believe the existence of that strip was for the gag.


Since you don't believe the strip existed just to convey the gag of the day, there's an unavoidable truth that you believe there's more to the strip than that.

That makes it logical and supportable for me to say that you're reading too much into the strip, and illogical for you to backpedal by saying that because you didn't say "what (you) really got from the strip", that you weren't reading too much into it.

It's my position that since the strip was essentially that, any indication on your part that you don't support that belief means you must therefore be reading more into the strip, hence my comment that you're reading too much into it.

It's just logic.


I don't "think I know what people are thinking." I just use creative thinking and rational deduction to look at possibilities and meaning within language and I come up with the truth of matters.


It's an undeniable fact that if you don't believe that the strip was just a gag vehicle, you're interpreting more AKA reading into the strip more than that. For you to not say what it is does not in any way remove that truth.


If I look at an apple and you look at an apple and I say "That's an apple" and you say "I think there's more to it than that", I'm free to say "I think you're reading too much into it."

You cannot then logically turn to me and say "Since I did not tell you what I think, only that I did think something, you cannot make that argument that I'm reading too much into it."

While it is true that I don't know exactly what you're reading into the strip, I do know from your words that you read something else into it. I'm then perfectly reasonably able to make the conclusion based on my opinion of the strip that you're reading too much into it.




As for Tat, he's relatively simple. Do you really think he's been subtle over the last few years? I don't think anyone here is arguing that. I've made it clear that I believe Slick is unlikely to change because Tat uses him as a foil for his "new" ideological message in Sinfest. It's worth mentioning that my opinion there has been echoed and even directly supported in other threads by people.

Most people don't think Tat will change Slick because he needs Slick to be who he is for the message. I'm hardly the only one who believes that.


This isn't a character driven comic any more, it's a message driven comic.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Yinello wrote:
If it was anyone else than Slick then I would definitely be with you Istancow. But right now I'm more worried those glasses are stopping him from empathizing at all.


I wouldn't say it's the lack of empathy. You generally don't empathize with someone when 30 seconds ago they were about to turn your head into a crater.

The lack of any kind of response you'd expect after a near-death experience is kinda weird though.


Whoops, I did indeed mean responding.
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Midnight Tea



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
As for Tat, he's relatively simple. Do you really think he's been subtle over the last few years? I don't think anyone here is arguing that. I've made it clear that I believe Slick is unlikely to change because Tat uses him as a foil for his "new" ideological message in Sinfest. It's worth mentioning that my opinion there has been echoed and even directly supported in other threads by people.

Most people don't think Tat will change Slick because he needs Slick to be who he is for the message. I'm hardly the only one who believes that.

This isn't a character driven comic any more, it's a message driven comic.

(I'm removing your random bolding because it's unnecessary.)

Mostly I contest the idea that Sinfest is an ideological comic now. I mean, I guess it's true in some sense, since much of it has been about the melodrama of living under dominance, but I'm not sure what ideology Sinfest is necessarily using its characters to support or promote. I mean, feminism possibly, but if that's the case it's doing it very weakly and in the most superficial ways possible. I think calling it ideological is giving it a bit too much credit.
I think I've heard somewhere that Mr. Ishida kind of makes these up as he goes along. The comic kind of reflects that with how it meanders and how it can be a little bit inconsistent. I think the characters are all that Sinfest really has, sans a coherent and compelling ideology. So no, it's not unreasonable to focus on the characters or want to see them develop in interesting ways. Due to the comic sorta following the Ishida whims, I don't think anything is ever really set in stone.

I'd agree that Slick is the comic's foil, but that role can be fulfilled without him also being one dimensional and dickish or necessarily detracting from the message. I mean, the same could be said of Xanthe who was a lot more caustic and bitchy in her first appearances but cooled down considerably.
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MerchManDan



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
I don't "think I know what people are thinking." I just use creative thinking and rational deduction to look at possibilities and meaning within language and I come up with the truth of matters.

Indeed.

Anyhow, thanks so much for making your position crystal-clear. I'll be sure to keep it in mind whenever I see another one of your posts.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
Anyhow, thanks so much for making your position crystal-clear. I'll be sure to keep it in mind whenever I see another one of your posts.

*snirk* There is a reason I stopped reading that guy's novels pretty early on, ya know?
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Midnight Tea wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
As for Tat, he's relatively simple. Do you really think he's been subtle over the last few years? I don't think anyone here is arguing that. I've made it clear that I believe Slick is unlikely to change because Tat uses him as a foil for his "new" ideological message in Sinfest. It's worth mentioning that my opinion there has been echoed and even directly supported in other threads by people.

Most people don't think Tat will change Slick because he needs Slick to be who he is for the message. I'm hardly the only one who believes that.

This isn't a character driven comic any more, it's a message driven comic.

(I'm removing your random bolding because it's unnecessary.)

Mostly I contest the idea that Sinfest is an ideological comic now. I mean, I guess it's true in some sense, since much of it has been about the melodrama of living under dominance, but I'm not sure what ideology Sinfest is necessarily using its characters to support or promote. I mean, feminism possibly, but if that's the case it's doing it very weakly and in the most superficial ways possible. I think calling it ideological is giving it a bit too much credit.
I think I've heard somewhere that Mr. Ishida kind of makes these up as he goes along. The comic kind of reflects that with how it meanders and how it can be a little bit inconsistent. I think the characters are all that Sinfest really has, sans a coherent and compelling ideology. So no, it's not unreasonable to focus on the characters or want to see them develop in interesting ways. Due to the comic sorta following the Ishida whims, I don't think anything is ever really set in stone.

I'd agree that Slick is the comic's foil, but that role can be fulfilled without him also being one dimensional and dickish or necessarily detracting from the message. I mean, the same could be said of Xanthe who was a lot more caustic and bitchy in her first appearances but cooled down considerably.

I disagree in ways. I think the comic is, if not strictly ideological, very message-oriented. That's why you can find environmental arcs, political arcs or feminist arcs. The ideology changes at times, but Tat is clearly using this as a way to express himself ideologically, even though it might not be the only reason.

Tat doesn't seem too interested in character development atm, but that's a completely different thing.

And Slick isn't one-dimensional by any means. I could start listing several aspects of his personality, personal ambitions and desire to change, but I think it boils down to 'Slick has been set up as a fascinating character, but most of the aspects of his personality haven't been used as for late.' I am certain that Tat has his full scope in mind, but chooses to not make use of that at least for now.
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MerchManDan



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
Anyhow, thanks so much for making your position crystal-clear. I'll be sure to keep it in mind whenever I see another one of your posts.

*snirk* There is a reason I stopped reading that guy's novels pretty early on, ya know?

Yup. A moment of weakness on my part, I guess.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've all been there.
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
Anyhow, thanks so much for making your position crystal-clear. I'll be sure to keep it in mind whenever I see another one of your posts.

*snirk* There is a reason I stopped reading that guy's novels pretty early on, ya know?


I know, isn't it disgusting how I communicate my point in multi-syllabic paragraphs instead of nice consumable twitter sized platitudes?
It's almost like I'm trying to convey a complete message when I talk.
I'm always a bit curious about how there's this developing trend on the internet to scoff at people who write posts more than a couple paragraphs long. Since when did putting more than 200 words together on an idea become a bad thing?


If you want a nice concise quote though, how about this.


Anyone who discards a person's comment because it was too long for them to bother reading and not because they actually bothered to digest it and then disagree with it is just an ass.
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oi! As someone who communicates in consumable twitter-sized platitudes, I resent that.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean if your point was nuanced enough to require it I don't mind reading a lot. I've devoured plenty of long posts and articles because I thought I could learn something off 'em.

If it's just cuz you've crammed so much condescension in that your actual point is buried so deep it's hard to find than I'm just not going to bother.
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
I mean if your point was nuanced enough to require it I don't mind reading a lot. I've devoured plenty of long posts and articles because I thought I could learn something off 'em.

If it's just cuz you've crammed so much condescension in that your actual point is buried so deep it's hard to find than I'm just not going to bother.


That's why I bold portions for the reader's convenience.
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