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2014-05-21: Great Day For Devil Tech
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6559

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
Chapter 1: In which Han cooks breakfast for Leia and the twins.
Chapter 2: In which Luke successfully trains all the Jedi and no one falls.
Chapter 3: In which Leia presides over a successful New Republic without conflict.
Chapter 4: In which Leia and Han go to the zoo with the twins to meet Luke, who falls in love with the woman managing the tauntaun enclosure. (Han grumbles about the smell for years after this)
Chapter 5: In which Lando shows up, having created a successful business that never collapsed or had anything happen to it, was sold, and now retired, he decides to hang out on Coruscant and golf with Han.

No one would read that.


Okay I did the thing where I didn't read the big block of text but I did read this part and I have to step in to disagree because I would -TOTALLY AND WITHOUT RESERVE- read the hell out of that.

This is exactly what fanfiction -does- and you have just described 'fluff' and fluffy fic is -my jam-.
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will give you a quick tl;dr on my wall of text then.

The books were getting a bit stale because you always knew they were going to pull a rabbit out of the hat in the end and win. After 40 books, it was time for a major challenge and upheaval.

I thought I wrote the bigger post well though. Oh well.


Here's an aside that has always bothered me. It's been mentioned several times in the EU canon that at the time of Return of the Jedi's end, the Empire had 25,000 Star Destroyers and countless numbers of sundry support ships.

No author has ever been able to reasonably deal with the size of the Empire's navy, their loss, and the fact that fights later on in the EU take place with like five or six capital ships here or there. Zsinj tears around with an ISD and a few support ships and he's a major problem. Talvira only has one Imp Star II and a small support fleet and they task a fleet to hunt her down. There's an incongruity between how many ships the Empire needed to police the galaxy and how many are ever demonstrated in the books. I'll grant that the Empire was more militarised than the New Republic, but even accounting for that, half or even a quarter of the fleet strength would still mean thousands of capital ships.

The Black Fleet Crisis tried to address that, but then later authors almost wholly abandoned the ship designs and fleet size of the Fifth Battle Group in later books. Even then, the Fifth Battle Group had about 106 vessels.
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Onimaru



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
BIG well thought out arguement.


Ok, I can somewhat see your point, however in many cases, mostly the Twins and Anakin, writers threw out, no fuck it, took their character traits and pissed on them and shoved the urine soaked crap down the fan's throats.

Jacen went from a cheerful animal loving teen that went utterly chickenshit about the force and then when Balance Point came about another author tried to turn it around and make it so he was beginning to understand and have confidence again.... and the next author turned it 'Nope he made a mistake! He's an angsty whiner again.'

Jaina went completely teen drama queen, not even going to go there.

Anakin went from quiet intellectual kid to damn near maniac in the span of a single book. He burned down a jungle full of life just to distract the Vong to sneak in somewhere, a Vong he was helping ATTACKED him for it, and only after sensing the thousands of deaths he caused did he realize 'he did bad'.

I'm not necessarily against change, but when you go from a Universe which follows the 'Action Drama' formula, where bad shit happens, people die but you still work towards a good ending, to 'Teen Wangst Drama' where no matter what you do or how much good is done, in the end it doesn't even matter because good is only ever a blink of light in a Universe of Darkness Bullshit.

That isn't Star Wars, and there is a reason why most of those Novels never got the same regard or prestige as the previous Generation of books. Why? Because when you or anybody else tries to take something that people LOVE and 'Go in a New Direction' Throwing everything out the window, because you're CERTAIN your vision is greater than 20 years of something Millions LOVE, you're going to have a BAD TIME.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
I will give you a quick tl;dr on my wall of text then.

The books were getting a bit stale because you always knew they were going to pull a rabbit out of the hat in the end and win. After 40 books, it was time for a major challenge and upheaval.

I thought I wrote the bigger post well though. Oh well.


Nah, you wrote it just fine.

My only point is that I'm a unique snowflake and fluff never gets boring for me. I just don't like tragedy. I don't like hurt/comfort or angst. If things don't end at least on an uplifting note I'm usually not very interested. Obviously I can handle some of those themes in moderation, but they are not what I like to dwell on.

I love the idea of endless books of 'and then things were different but still okay'.

I think sometimes, and this includes ALL action/adventure stuff, especially the things that are long running: We forget that it doesn't have to be the end of the world on the line. Smaller conflicts can be interesting, too.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khan wrote:
Well, back when Attack of the Clones came out, drinking cough syrup to get really wasted was starting to get mainstream. Most had pretty strong 'sedatives' to surpress the cough reflex. In many countries they were loaded with codein, great for shutting up kids with the sniffles. Shocked of course, people eventually noticed codein tends to surpress the breathing wiring, so this was a great example of fairly recent medicine of the downright idiotic variety. Rolling Eyes

You may already know this, but there's an interesting history to drinking cough syrup, before it blew up in the late 90s and early 2000s for some reason (there were at least 6 rap songs specifically about it, not including mc chris' "the tussin"). Drinking it mixed with alcohol dates back to the 60s (the Moby Grape song "Hey Grandma" references Robitussin and elderberry wine, which sounds awful), and apparently it was popular in Houston's R&B crowd, which is how it ended up becoming part of rap/hip hop songs 30 years later.

Nowadays, in the US at least, codeine/promethazine cough syrups are by prescription, and over the counter stuff uses dextromethorphan... which can still get you high and even cause hallucinations, but is less likely to cause respiratory depression. Less likely, but still possible (especially when mixed with other CNS depressants like alcohol). So, we've got that going for us, which is nice.

Personally, I hate the taste so much that I'd probably throw up before I could drink enough to get high. I wasn't made for purple drank. Sad
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
khan wrote:
Well, back when Attack of the Clones came out, drinking cough syrup to get really wasted was starting to get mainstream. Most had pretty strong 'sedatives' to surpress the cough reflex. In many countries they were loaded with codein, great for shutting up kids with the sniffles. Shocked of course, people eventually noticed codein tends to surpress the breathing wiring, so this was a great example of fairly recent medicine of the downright idiotic variety. Rolling Eyes

You may already know this, but there's an interesting history to drinking cough syrup, before it blew up in the late 90s and early 2000s for some reason (there were at least 6 rap songs specifically about it, not including mc chris' "the tussin"). Drinking it mixed with alcohol dates back to the 60s (the Moby Grape song "Hey Grandma" references Robitussin and elderberry wine, which sounds awful), and apparently it was popular in Houston's R&B crowd, which is how it ended up becoming part of rap/hip hop songs 30 years later.

Nowadays, in the US at least, codeine/promethazine cough syrups are by prescription, and over the counter stuff uses dextromethorphan... which can still get you high and even cause hallucinations, but is less likely to cause respiratory depression. Less likely, but still possible (especially when mixed with other CNS depressants like alcohol). So, we've got that going for us, which is nice.

Personally, I hate the taste so much that I'd probably throw up before I could drink enough to get high. I wasn't made for purple drank. Sad

Ooohh Ooohh I know this one!

In the 90's, it was rave music (pre-EDM for you hipsters, aka electronica). Dextromethorphan or DXM, the 'DM' in Robitussin DM, was the poor-man's MDMA. It was easier and cheaper to buy or steal a bottle of cough syrup vs. $20-$30 per Ecstasy pill. As the music/dance culture grew, so did use of the the drugs associated with it. I definitely remember it being big in and around my high school days, from 1993-97.

It was back in the days of the 'great denim surplus':


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Last edited by Darqcyde on Sun May 25, 2014 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10622
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
I will give you a quick tl;dr on my wall of text then.

The books were getting a bit stale because you always knew they were going to pull a rabbit out of the hat in the end and win. After 40 books, it was time for a major challenge and upheaval.

I thought I wrote the bigger post well though. Oh well.


Nah, you wrote it just fine.

My only point is that I'm a unique snowflake and fluff never gets boring for me. I just don't like tragedy. I don't like hurt/comfort or angst. If things don't end at least on an uplifting note I'm usually not very interested. Obviously I can handle some of those themes in moderation, but they are not what I like to dwell on.

I love the idea of endless books of 'and then things were different but still okay'.

I think sometimes, and this includes ALL action/adventure stuff, especially the things that are long running: We forget that it doesn't have to be the end of the world on the line. Smaller conflicts can be interesting, too.

There's more to stories than just conflict/resolution, but some with argue otherwise considering many hold it to be the very foundation of literature.

I say, a story doesn't need the conflict/resolution dichotomy and that's just a carry over from patriarchal, warrior-male mentalities.

I say, a story only needs to meet one requirement. It only needs to be interesting.

It doesn't need conflict or resolution. it doesn't need characters or plot or really much of anything else. All it needs is the ability to keep your eyeballs going from one word to the next.

And yes, what's interesting for some won't be interesting for others, vice-versa, and every permutation inbetween.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh my god those are pants.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
oh my god those are pants.


Not going to lie, I had those pants on the left.

I grew up in 90s Chicago jungle. I still miss those days. We'd drive straight thru from Minnesota to get to the parties.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Okay I did the thing where I didn't read the big block of text but I did read this part and I have to step in to disagree because I would -TOTALLY AND WITHOUT RESERVE- read the hell out of that.

This is exactly what fanfiction -does- and you have just described 'fluff' and fluffy fic is -my jam-.


well, not even that. you can have action and drama and stuff without building a universe where the original trilogy's positive ending is actually a weird aberration and even though the powers that be claim the jedi are right about everything if you look at the overall narrative of the EU it sure looks like the sith are right about everything instead, which lends an enormous feeling of dissonance to the entire franchise.

instead the EU was nothing but each author trying to one-up everyone else. that results in a dark and dreary universe...but more than that, it's just boring.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I kinda tapped out when I started reading book covers and finding out people I liked were gunna die.

I also got into the habit of reading the last page of a book to judge the tone of the ending before buying it. Heh.
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Okay I did the thing where I didn't read the big block of text but I did read this part and I have to step in to disagree because I would -TOTALLY AND WITHOUT RESERVE- read the hell out of that.

This is exactly what fanfiction -does- and you have just described 'fluff' and fluffy fic is -my jam-.


well, not even that. you can have action and drama and stuff without building a universe where the original trilogy's positive ending is actually a weird aberration and even though the powers that be claim the jedi are right about everything if you look at the overall narrative of the EU it sure looks like the sith are right about everything instead, which lends an enormous feeling of dissonance to the entire franchise.

instead the EU was nothing but each author trying to one-up everyone else. that results in a dark and dreary universe...but more than that, it's just boring.


How do you reconcile the belief that the authors were simply trying to one-up each other with the truth that there was significant collaboration on the part of all the EU authors, many of whom co-wrote sections of books, got together many times to plan our story arcs and worked together on characters. There was a collaborative atmosphere between a collection of authors who had worked together over years and years of EU novels. Especially in the New Jedi Order, Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi series, the authors who wrote the books all had several other EU books under their belts and relationships with each other.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
How do you reconcile the belief that the authors were simply trying to one-up each other with the truth that there was significant collaboration on the part of all the EU authors


easy: i don't have to, because they do not need reconciliation, because you are not talking about contradictory things. the saga of Karen Traviss is remarkably difficult to describe otherwise.

unless you mean to say it's merely coincidence that the novels in particular bounce back and forth between whether the Jedi are heroes or the source of all the galaxy's problems, whether the Republic/Alliance is the best government available or Empire 2.0, whether the actual Empire is the enemy or some okay-ish third party, and that each new conflict is bigger and has more dire implications for the entire universe than the last.
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
How do you reconcile the belief that the authors were simply trying to one-up each other with the truth that there was significant collaboration on the part of all the EU authors


easy: i don't have to, because they do not need reconciliation, because you are not talking about contradictory things. the saga of Karen Traviss is remarkably difficult to describe otherwise.

unless you mean to say it's merely coincidence that the novels in particular bounce back and forth between whether the Jedi are heroes or the source of all the galaxy's problems, whether the Republic/Alliance is the best government available or Empire 2.0, whether the actual Empire is the enemy or some okay-ish third party, and that each new conflict is bigger and has more dire implications for the entire universe than the last.


I never read the Karen Traviss issues as being a problem with the other authors upstaging each other. How familiar are you with the Karen Traviss issues?

Some points that are worth understanding.

* A lot of her work had to do with Clone War era issues, and therefore aren't really involved in the ABY period we're discussing

* One of the major problems she had that eventually convinced her to leave was the direction taken in subsequent seasons of the Clone Wars tv show, and that's something completely aside from what we're discussing here. The Clone Wars show was driven by different controlling identities than the authors.


While I do like the work she put into Legacy regarding the Mandalorians and Jaina, in fact as I mentioned earlier, I think they might be the best part of the series, there are some valid issues with her writing. She's definitely in the clone troopers "camp" as it were, she's really involved in them and so she skews a lot of the writing towards them and as a result towards the Mandalorians through their link later on. That's understandable, she's ex military, but in a sense it could be some of what you mentioned with her building up characters that others had written in a different way. I think there's probably room in the canon for some Mandalorian expansion, however, and it fits well with the legend.

An easier issue but not as important was her 3 million gaffe. I'd call it a gaffe because, like the "25,000 Star Destroyers in the Imperial Navy" canon, it's just not a realistic number. It's less than the numbers we've had in most major wars, and when you consider the size of the conflict and the manner in which troops must be transported, ( in ships that get wiped off the field of battle, often with the loss of thousands of troops at once ), it's not a good number.


Still, with all that understood, I don't see how it's related to authors one-upping each other. To address your specific comment, the way that the characters bounce from their normal positions to the Karen Traviss "mando good jedi bad" mirror universe stuff is that she came into the series with a pretty clear agenda based on her history. I don't read that as authors competing with each other so much as it is her pushing an agenda into a fictional universe.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one of Traviss' major contributions to the EU was putting Daala in charge of the galaxy and getting the Mandalorians to persecute the Jedi, which came along with Jaina's Mandalorian character derailment. her work is primarily a backlash to one of the central elements of Star Wars, the Jedi; it's not just that she focuses on people who aren't Jedi, it's that she denigrates the ones who are Jedi. hence why she left Star Wars in the first place; the Clone Wars showrunners pointed out that her conception of the Mandalorians were still villainous by any other name, in part because they were the ones persecuting the Jedi, and one of the fundamental pieces of Star Wars' foundation is that the Jedi are the good guys.

and it's related to authors one-upping each other because her work, including having the Mandalorians persecuting the Jedi and Daala exiling Luke because reasons and an entire plotline in which the Jedi are contrived to be a menace to the galaxy so someone else can look heroic in stopping them, both rebukes previous authors (who had the Jedi be the heroes), and itself is rebuked by later authors (because the Jedi eventually overthrow Daala and take over the Alliance).
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