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2014-05-25: Playback 2
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Onimaru wrote:



This is the most logical conclusion of course, maybe, just maybe she wanted to talk to the man responsible for her freedom in a way that she was sure to be in control, to see if she should be thankful, to see if he was different from what she'd seen and experienced. And thanks to Slick's INFINITE retardation, wanting to 'fix' her freedom, 'repair' her malfunctioning freewill and only seeing her 'worth' as an object and possession, he proved that he wasn't worthy of thanks or consideration.

And I think THAT pisses me off about this situation more than anything else, at the time he wanted her to be real he wanted being with her to be real, it may have been selfish reasoning that brought her to the R Zone, but I think he was genuinely sad when he lost her. I would have thought he'd be happy to see she was alright and still OK, instead it comes out, "You're broken cause you no longer acting like a doll, the exact thing I was trying to remove by taking you to the Reality Zone. Let me turn you back into a mindslave." I mean come on, how far can one person backslide a thousand times and still be believed as a person with a functioning freaking brain?


There may be an explanation that salvages a bit of Slick. It's possible that he doesn't want her to return to being a mindslave, but that he's connecting her actions of running around with a gun kicking people and threatening to kill them as "broken" actions that resulted from his taking her to the reality zone and it's those actions he's trying to fix.

Remember, he has no knowledge of what has been going on with her since he last saw her. All he knows is he took her into a reality zone, she ran away, and now she's got a combat knife and a shotgun and she's running around putting people on the ground. IF you look at it from that context, saying "let me fix you" doesn't necessarily mean "let me turn you back into a mindslave" it probably means "let's make you not be running around with a large caliber firearm in public."
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Onimaru



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ OaklahomanSun:

You might be right, but I'd be more ready to believe that if the first thing he did after saying he wanted to 'fix' her wasn't look at her pricetag.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if his feeling of wanting her "fixed" could be interpreted as legitimate concern, his perception of her purpose, the reason for her actions, and therefore what "broken" and "fixed" mean, is really freakin' messed up.

And way too close a parallel to how far too many "benevolent sexists" approach women who are unhappy for whatever reason.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Even if his feeling of wanting her "fixed" could be interpreted as legitimate concern, his perception of her purpose, the reason for her actions, and therefore what "broken" and "fixed" mean, is really freakin' messed up.

And way too close a parallel to how far too many "benevolent sexists" approach women who are unhappy for whatever reason.

YUP. Well put.

I will spare you all the many many personal rants I have about this running theme in my life.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Even if his feeling of wanting her "fixed" could be interpreted as legitimate concern, his perception of her purpose, the reason for her actions, and therefore what "broken" and "fixed" mean, is really freakin' messed up.

And way too close a parallel to how far too many "benevolent sexists" approach women who are unhappy for whatever reason.


Bit of a stretch there, mate. I'd consider rolling around with a shotgun and a knife broken behaviour. Again, I think your extrapolating what Slick would have her fixed behaviour be. He may just want to stop her rolling around heavy with a break action shotgun.

On a realistic side, we are probably at most twenty years from actual sex robots.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So when dudes get a tragic back story and go on violent revenge sprees with guns and knives they're considered vigilantes and treated as either heroes or at least anti-heroes of their own story.

A lady robot does it though and it's 'broken behavior' that needs 'fixing'.

Hmmmm.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
So when dudes get a tragic back story and go on violent revenge sprees with guns and knives they're considered vigilantes and treated as either heroes or at least anti-heroes of their own story.

A lady robot does it though and it's 'broken behavior' that needs 'fixing'.

Hmmmm.


Say whaa?!?! When you frame it that way it almost seems problematic Wink
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
So when dudes get a tragic back story and go on violent revenge sprees with guns and knives they're considered vigilantes and treated as either heroes or at least anti-heroes of their own story.

A lady robot does it though and it's 'broken behavior' that needs 'fixing'.

Hmmmm.


The problem with that is that you are conflating fiction with reality. In real life, dudebro vigilante actions like you described are generally wrong. So would the fembot's action.

However, we're debating Px's actions as if the things in Sinfest are real, and you're comparing them to the hollywood style revenge action trope.

In real life, most people wouldn't be ok with either thing you described.
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Onimaru



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that's just it, Slick wanted to 'Fix' her as if she had no right or reason to be feeling angry, he didn't try to understand, or even care for a goddamned minute WHY she was angry enough to do it in the first place.

Sure if she was just walking around shooting at random one might believe she's 'broken' and not acting with a rational mind. But she put forth very specific questions to him, looking for his replies, his feelings about what he, and others, do in regards to Fembots and he just gives the same 'I'm on your side' tripe he always does, AFTER saying he can make her 'right' again because her anger at men who buy Fembots has to be a malfunction not a feeling, Right?

Sure rampaging with a shotgun isn't Good Behavior, but it's damn justifiable when you're planning on fighting what you see as enslavement, death and abuse of your 'family'.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OklahomanSun wrote:
Samsally wrote:
So when dudes get a tragic back story and go on violent revenge sprees with guns and knives they're considered vigilantes and treated as either heroes or at least anti-heroes of their own story.

A lady robot does it though and it's 'broken behavior' that needs 'fixing'.

Hmmmm.


The problem with that is that you are conflating fiction with reality. In real life, dudebro vigilante actions like you described are generally wrong. So would the fembot's action.

However, we're debating Px's actions as if the things in Sinfest are real, and you're comparing them to the hollywood style revenge action trope.

In real life, most people wouldn't be ok with either thing you described.


I am talking about the conversation itself, happening right this very second in this very thread.

Dudes that get to be the hero in fiction don't -get- criticized like this, or if they do it sure as hell isn't proportionate to how often they get admired and praised. It also isn't proportionate to how often fictional women get torn down for the exact same things, either.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Onimaru wrote:
But that's just it, Slick wanted to 'Fix' her as if she had no right or reason to be feeling angry, he didn't try to understand, or even care for a goddamned minute WHY she was angry enough to do it in the first place.

Sure if she was just walking around shooting at random one might believe she's 'broken' and not acting with a rational mind. But she put forth very specific questions to him, looking for his replies, his feelings about what he, and others, do in regards to Fembots and he just gives the same 'I'm on your side' tripe he always does, AFTER saying he can make her 'right' again because her anger at men who buy Fembots has to be a malfunction not a feeling, Right?

Sure rampaging with a shotgun isn't Good Behavior, but it's damn justifiable when you're planning on fighting what you see as enslavement, death and abuse of your 'family'.


Justifiable is an iffy prospect to prove on this one.. Understandable is probably more appropriate. One of the things people have to buy into in order to have a society is a system of justice that is elevated above personal priorities. Without that, we've got fathers running around shooting people they think were the ones that raped their daughter, people shooting the people in the city they think are the drug dealers or otherwise malcontents, and essentially everyone taking the law into their hands for things done to them both real or perceived.

We're not given much information on what the court system is like in the Sinfest world, or whether fembots have legal standing, but it's pretty likely that there is a court system in Sinfest and that it's the proper venue for grievances.

There may be a particular argument to be made specifically for fembots if they don't have standing in the courts, but even in that situation, disenfranchised minorities that had little or no standing in the courts were often able to gain power by bringing those injustices to the light of day in the court.

So I would say that no, her actions aren't justified, but they are understandable. It may be nitpicking, but they are two different words with different meanings. She's skating right on the edge, however. It depends how you define justified. If it means a "good" reason, then maybe if not probably. If it means legitimate, then probably not.

I'm just nitpicking here anyway. The drama here is much better than if PX had just summonsed Milton and Slick to court, for example, or freed her sisters and created a special interest group that put pressure on politicians to create laws to protect them.
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OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
OklahomanSun wrote:
Samsally wrote:
So when dudes get a tragic back story and go on violent revenge sprees with guns and knives they're considered vigilantes and treated as either heroes or at least anti-heroes of their own story.

A lady robot does it though and it's 'broken behavior' that needs 'fixing'.

Hmmmm.


The problem with that is that you are conflating fiction with reality. In real life, dudebro vigilante actions like you described are generally wrong. So would the fembot's action.

However, we're debating Px's actions as if the things in Sinfest are real, and you're comparing them to the hollywood style revenge action trope.

In real life, most people wouldn't be ok with either thing you described.


I am talking about the conversation itself, happening right this very second in this very thread.

Dudes that get to be the hero in fiction don't -get- criticized like this, or if they do it sure as hell isn't proportionate to how often they get admired and praised. It also isn't proportionate to how often fictional women get torn down for the exact same things, either.


In that case, we were talking about two different things. I was operating under the assumption that we were pretending the Sinfest universe actions were really happening as if it was a real world. Under that context, I considered her actions to be incorrect. In the sense that they're both fiction, I'd agree that her actions should be seen as correctly as the guys are seen. I'm not sure if that sort of thing is as castigated in fiction as you think though. More on that in a sec.

If we're discussing them as a fictional universe, I say go to town. In the context of the freedom of a fictional world, I think she should ramp it up, in fact. Find a way to subvert the programming of her sisters and create a new power dynamic in Sinfest. Of course realising you are property designed simply to be a slave to another person is something that should send you into an enraged and righteous fury. I'm all for that.

I'd say that the righteous fury thing is actually one area where the gender double standard doesn't apply as strongly, by the way. Ripley has a bit of it against the company, Sarah Connor has a bit of it against "the man" with Cyberdyne Systems, Jodie Foster does it in The Brave One, Natalie Portman gets a bit of it in V for Vendetta, Uma Thurman is an obvious example in Kill Bill, and those are just off the top of my head. Righteous anger is one of those times when the gender double standard is strongly mitigated.
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
You know who else unloaded a gun once? HITLER.

Yeah, but that was like, into his head.
(Which is kinda different? A bit?)
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am glad the gun was unloaded, though what she did was STILL pretty screwed up. (Mock executions are considered a war crime for a reason-which is why I do not like shows that use it as a 'legitimate' interrogation tactic. A why I'm pissed Allen West was ever a senator. But that's a discussion for another time!)

Though on the flip side, it is possible she is not yet 'knowledgeable' enough to know that's wrong? (What *is* her level of moral development/complexity? She is only a few months 'old', and she's been on the run, so she likely hasn't had time to sit down and read, or learn, etc etc...)


... Also, did she have two guns, or did she *REALLY* not know how guns work? 'Cause, uh.

... Otherwise she kind of tried to snipe Milton with a shotgun.

That bit has probably already been discussed though.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Otherwise she kind of tried to snipe Milton with a shotgun.


I don't think Tat is too concerned with firearm mechanics. I mean, he had her using a single-barreled shotgun with an over/under double barreled breach.
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